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Message boards : Number crunching : Bonus Credit Experiment

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Michael GoetzProject donor
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Joined: 21 Jan 10
Posts: 9354
ID: 53948
Credit: 101,553,725
RAC: 18,346
321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 67283 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 2:17:06 UTC
Last modified: 25 Jun 2013 | 2:29:20 UTC

We are experimenting with giving bonus credit to certain sub projects, as follows:


  • Conjecture projects (SR5, TRP (sieve & LLR), PSP, and SoB) receive a 10% bonus to credit.

  • Long-duration tasks also receive a bonus, depending on the length of the project:

    • Medium Projects: 10% (321, TRP-LLR)
    • Medium-Long projects: 20% (CUL, WOO)
    • Long Projects: 35% (PSP)
    • Very Long Projects: 50% (SoB, GFN-WR)


While reviewing participation in each project, it was discovered that people REALLY like running short projects, and that participation in long projects was very light. There's good reason for that: errors on long projects cost you a lot more credit than short projects, it's much easier to switch into and out of challenges, and it's more satisfying to get credit quickly.

Furthermore, while we get a huge boost to a project when we run a challenge, it's not feasible to run a challenge on the long projects like SoB or GFN-WR. An SoB challenge would have to run for more than a month, and the cleanup would take almost a year. GFN-WR wouldn't be much better. We can't, therefore, create a big "challenge push" for those projects the way we can with the other projects. We'd really like to see progress made on the long projects.

Therefore, we want to give people an incentive to crunch the longer projects. We also want to give people incentive to crunch the conjectures, since we think they're more important than 'merely' finding prime numbers. So we're going to try using this modified credit plan and see if it helps boost participation in these projects.

This plan is subject to change, depending on how it works, but the intention is for this to be a permanent bonus.

The bonus credit was effective at approximately 01:00 UTC on Tuesday, June 25th. All workunits initially validated from then onwards should receive bonus credit, if appropriate.

P.S. Especially for those involved in other projects, we don't see this as an incentive for people to crunch PrimeGrid vs. some other project. The goal here is to get people currently crunching the short projects at PrimeGrid to perhaps crunch the longer projects. Participation in the larger projects is light enough such that we don't anticipate this having a significant effect on the overall credit-per-hour rates at PrimeGrid.

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Credit: 59,784,679
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321 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (38,254)Cullen LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (67,041)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (44,126)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,792,511)PSP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (85,206)SoB LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (141,313)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (212,264)SGS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (24,507)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (64,998)Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (63,828)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (49,671,685)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (63,599)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (787,078)GFN Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (996,077)PSA Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,732,193)
Message 67288 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 4:10:25 UTC - in response to Message 67283.

If a subproject qualifies for more than one (such as SoB), are the bonuses additive or multiplicative?

Profile mattozanProject donor
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Credit: 395,872,656
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321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,448,539)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,014,505)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,028,473)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,072,705)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (25,046,652)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,860,177)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,004,754)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,436,280)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,614,227)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,557,063)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,003,896)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,165,870)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,012,089)PPS Sieve Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (166,158,042)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (727,064)TRP Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,187,678)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,905,350)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (108,717,756)PSA Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (51,911,711)
Message 67289 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 5:22:51 UTC - in response to Message 67283.

There's good reason for that: errors on long projects cost you a lot more credit than short projects, it's much easier to switch into and out of challenges, and it's more satisfying to get credit quickly.


I think another major reason is that actually finding a prime is the most rewarding achievement at PrimeGrid; even more than getting credit or a badge (for me, anyway).

Crunching lots of smaller WUs gives better odds at finding actual primes, albeit smaller primes than a SoB or PSP or, perish the thought, a GFN-WR. My guess is that if I had crunched SoB exclusively for the last two years, my 67 million credit at PrimeGrid would also come with a zero Prime Score. That just doesn't feel as rewarding.

But I do appreciate your highlighting the conjecture projects at PG. It is rewarding to think about being part of a project with defined goals and an attainable endpoint.
____________

Proud member of Team Aggie the Pew


"Wir müssen wissen. Wir werden wissen."
"We must know, we shall know."
- David Hilbert, 1930

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Credit: 424,909,995
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321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,014,631)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,041,185)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,060,837)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,006,814)PPS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,052,020)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,262,777)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,871,011)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,328,868)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,000,415)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,064,150)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,009,056)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,002,919)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,875,218)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,870,331)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,341,676)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,070,804)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,268,123)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (25,886,632)PSA Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (326,882,526)
Message 67290 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 9:28:53 UTC - in response to Message 67288.

If a subproject qualifies for more than one (such as SoB), are the bonuses additive or multiplicative?


credit = base credit * conjecture bonus * long duration bonus

So the current overall bonus on SoB is 65%.

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Credit: 48,608,585
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321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,137,410)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,005,544)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,015,695)PPS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,023,233)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,065,730)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,036,592)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,008,007)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,000,012)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,795,613)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,017,997)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (208,993)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,000,304)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (911,589)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (11,092,841)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,313,121)TRP Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,284,804)AP 26/27 Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (335,569)GFN Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,599,058)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,756,474)
Message 67292 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 10:00:38 UTC

Actual credits for pending tasks need to update I guess...
____________

JimBProject donor
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Credit: 424,909,995
RAC: 2,282,902
321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,014,631)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,041,185)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,060,837)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,006,814)PPS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,052,020)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,262,777)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,871,011)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,328,868)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,000,415)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,064,150)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,009,056)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,002,919)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,875,218)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,870,331)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,341,676)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,070,804)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,268,123)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (25,886,632)PSA Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (326,882,526)
Message 67294 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 10:41:41 UTC - in response to Message 67292.

Actual credits for pending tasks need to update I guess...

Done.

Profile Elendur
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Credit: 5,646,991
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (421,197)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (402,625)PPS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (17,599)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (376,121)SoB LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (67,411)SGS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (26,383)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (19,158)Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (59,732)PPS Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,166,556)TRP Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (12,676)GFN Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (68,817)
Message 67303 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 14:59:33 UTC
Last modified: 25 Jun 2013 | 14:59:47 UTC

It'd be nice to read how one would go about to make that change.

I'm pretty much at the stage where I run my computer 16 hours a day, 5-6 days a week, but newbie when it comes to everything else.

I read the notices but that's pretty much the extent to what I'm doing. So when I read this I'm interested in helping but I'm not making much headway in finding how to select projects.
____________

Profile Gary Craig
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Credit: 736,921,278
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321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,267,162)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,277,342)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,085,940)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (781,305)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,313,186)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,147,471)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,194,447)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,573,827)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,556,840)TRP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,019,191)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,100,141)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,818)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (59,788,598)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,056,778)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (446,904,968)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,130,821)TRP Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,074,710)AP 26/27 Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (227,004)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (106,842,054)PSA Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (62,378,755)
Message 67306 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 15:48:43 UTC - in response to Message 67303.

In the BOINC Manager GUI, on the "Projects" or "Tasks" tab, click on a PrimeGrid line. Then there should be a button on the left side, "Preferences". If you click on that, it will open a web browser page that will allow you to select which sub-projects you want to contribute to, via the "edit preferences" link. Since you have an i5-2500, you can run any of the CPU projects in good time. Your ATI GPU will only work on PPS Sieve.

--Gary

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Credit: 5,646,991
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (421,197)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (402,625)PPS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (17,599)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (376,121)SoB LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (67,411)SGS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (26,383)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (19,158)Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (59,732)PPS Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,166,556)TRP Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (12,676)GFN Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (68,817)
Message 67307 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 15:56:17 UTC - in response to Message 67306.

In the BOINC Manager GUI, on the "Projects" or "Tasks" tab, click on a PrimeGrid line. Then there should be a button on the left side, "Preferences". If you click on that, it will open a web browser page that will allow you to select which sub-projects you want to contribute to, via the "edit preferences" link. Since you have an i5-2500, you can run any of the CPU projects in good time. Your ATI GPU will only work on PPS Sieve.

--Gary

Awesome, thank you very much! It worked like a charm.

Michael GoetzProject donor
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Credit: 101,553,725
RAC: 18,346
321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 67308 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 15:57:45 UTC - in response to Message 67303.

It'd be nice to read how one would go about to make that change.

I'm pretty much at the stage where I run my computer 16 hours a day, 5-6 days a week, but newbie when it comes to everything else.

I read the notices but that's pretty much the extent to what I'm doing. So when I read this I'm interested in helping but I'm not making much headway in finding how to select projects.


On the left, click on the link that says "Your Account", which will bring up a page that displays information about your PrimeGrid account. Then click on the link in the middle of that page that says "Preferences for this project: PrimeGrid Preferences". You'll now see a page showing all the projects you have selected. Near the bottom, click on the link "Edit PrimeGrid Preferences".

Now you can select the projects you want to run. When you're done, hit the "Update Preferences" button on the bottom.

All (or almost all) BOINC projects work exactly this way.
____________
My lucky number is 75898^524288+1
Please do not PM me with support questions. They will usually go unanswered. Ask on the forums instead. Thank you!

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321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,488,687)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,351,076)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,673,153)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (681,323)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,109,130)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,435,120)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,410,755)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,814,614)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,119,747)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (76,372)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,842,105)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,538,832)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (209,833)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,000,264)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,647,096)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (309,764,626)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,177,104)TRP Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,556,644)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,700,416)GFN Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (216,458,853)PSA Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (741,628,878)
Message 67309 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 17:01:55 UTC - in response to Message 67283.

Well, I don't think that these changes will have that much effect, as those who are just in for the credits will just keep crunching PPS Sieve on GPU. Those who want to find as many primes as possible will keep crunching PPS(E)/SGS LLR, those who want to find a giant mega prime are already at the longrunners. Those who are chasing badges might be happy if there is a high bonus on their current priority subprojects, but would crunch different subprojects anyway; those who are collecting CPU times for as many applications as possible for their WUProp badge don't care much about the credits at all.

But I'd agree that it's fair to grant more credits for the longrunners, because they obviously have more time to error out. ;)

However, that 65% bonus on SoB feels a bit like deleting all the credits for the work done so far. There have been some adjustments over the last years -mostly upwards- but always just slight increases. I had to do 47 SoB WUs to reach 500k credits, now you'd just need 25 WUs for that, although the WU length did not change that much. :|

Also, I don't see why GFN-WR should have 50% bonus, while GFN-short has no bonus. GFN-short runs as long as SoB on CPU (although it might not push it that hard) and on GPU, the runtime ratio WR vs short is more like SoB vs TRP than SoB vs SGS.

Therefore, I'd prefer to see SoB and GFN-WR at the 35% level (which would still result in close to 50% for SoB due to the conjecture bonus), if this was going to be permanent.
____________

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321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,110,951)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,124,368)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,235,977)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,571,773)PPS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,939,868)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,983,690)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,014,169)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,371,141)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,347,879)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,840,464)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,057,397)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (22,187)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (201,767)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,761,254)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (240,783,348)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,293,182)TRP Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,183,808)AP 26/27 Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (26,567,969)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,915,947)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (168,922,507)
Message 67315 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 17:49:21 UTC

I think the bonus system is an excellent idea. The reasoning behind the change is very accurate, as far as I'm concerned. I have no strong feelings about how much the bonus should be. I leave that to administrators. They know which projects are important and/or need a boost.

The bonus for the manual sieving of SR5 led to a significant boost and made crunchers (such as I) go for the manual sieving who'd never bothered to do so before.

Likewise, the reluctance to go for the next SoB badge is very much smaller thanks to the proposed bonus.

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PPS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (683,896)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (65,374)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (198,823)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,095,504)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,131,472)
Message 67316 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 18:22:56 UTC

The additional credit is all about indicating where the emphasis and effort is required by the Admins - and more importantly, encouraging that effort to actually happen - Comparing "bonus" to other projects is therefore superfluous.

Its all about encouraging effort in various places where the Admins need it, not credit comparison between Projects. With the latter we can all easily go round in circles, and up our own tailpipes by applying different motivations to the "bonus".

It is what it is ..... Crunch on :)

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321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 67317 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 18:40:58 UTC - in response to Message 67309.

There have been some adjustments over the last years -mostly upwards- but always just slight increases.


I beg to differ...

For LLR, since credit used to be automated (and wildly inaccurate) based upon CPU time, there were never any adjustments made to LLR's credit. The only thing that was ever changed was the credit cap, to keep up with the increasing size of the computations.

On sieves, just the opposite is true -- we reduced the credit on PPS-Sieve dramatically a year or two ago. As I recall, that didn't go over very well. :)

Likewise, we recently increased -- again fairly significantly -- the credit for TRP Sieve because it was still far below what PPS-Sieve is getting, even after the reduction to PPS-Sieve.

Also, I don't see why GFN-WR should have 50% bonus, while GFN-short has no bonus. GFN-short runs as long as SoB on CPU (although it might not push it that hard) and on GPU, the runtime ratio WR vs short is more like SoB vs TRP than SoB vs SGS.


Everything you say about GFN is true. I considered giving a bonus to the "short" GFN project, because, as you say, despite the name, it's really the same size computation as SoB. So why no bonus? Because it's intended to be a GPU project, and it's a comparatively short and reliable computation. More importantly, however, it's popular, and we're making great progress with it. There's simply no need for incentives to crunch the short GFN tasks.

The long tasks, however, are a completely different story. It's very difficult to keep a GPU running for that length of time, especially on a computer that's in use. There's a lot of things that can go wrong external to the program -- plus all the overclockiing and overheating problems with Genefer itself. Before the reliability improverments that were made this year, the success rate on the long tasks was around 3%. (That includes all sorts of failures, including systems that are misconfigured and fail instantly as soon as they start to run. That racks up the error count pretty quickly, similar to the 3-second errors with LLR.)

The problem with the long tasks is compounded by the fasct that both long and short tasks share the same badge -- so there's no badge-related incentive to crunch the long tasks.

The bonus on the long GFN (and lack of bonus on the short GFN) is designed to get people to switch from the short tasks to the WR tasks.
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321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 67318 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 18:45:25 UTC - in response to Message 67316.

Its all about encouraging effort in various places where the Admins need it, not credit comparison between Projects. With the latter we can all easily go round in circles, and up our own tailpipes by applying different motivations to the "bonus".


Exactly. I don't think these changes will have any effect on PrimeGrid's overall credit standing vs. other projects, since the highest credit rates (PPS-Sieve on a GPU) aren't changing. This should have no effect on inter-project credit comparisons. The changes only affect comparisons between the different sub-projects.


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321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,488,687)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,351,076)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,673,153)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (681,323)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,109,130)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,435,120)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,410,755)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,814,614)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,119,747)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (76,372)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,842,105)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,538,832)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (209,833)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,000,264)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,647,096)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (309,764,626)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,177,104)TRP Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,556,644)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,700,416)GFN Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (216,458,853)PSA Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (741,628,878)
Message 67319 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 20:23:14 UTC - in response to Message 67316.

The additional credit is all about indicating where the emphasis and effort is required by the Admins - and more importantly, encouraging that effort to actually happen - Comparing "bonus" to other projects is therefore superfluous.

But there are other possible and IMHO more effective indicators and I'm not convinced that there's really such a need for further inducement. ;)

Those who are looking for the "highest priority subproject" very likely won't do extensive research to find out which one has the highest bonus. They might read the news (OK, now there's the link to this thread, but normally there are only challenge announcements as possible indicators which subproject they should choose), they might read the Top LLR Priorities (very outdated) or Top Sieve Priorities, they might read the preferences page (PPSE LLR is labeled as "Focus project", maybe that's part of the reason why that subproject is quite popular?).

Back in 2007, Cullen LLR started a few months after Woodall LLR and John tried to organize an effort to bring it to the same level. There were no badges, no extra credits, but still a nice push.

Whenever PPS or SGS were about to drop below Top5000 level, there were posts to encourage crunchers to switch there... and it worked, although there were again no extra credits.

Of course, we don't know whether more crunchers would have taken part in those efforts if there had been bonus credits. But we don't know whether there had been really much less participation in the SR5 sieving effort, if the accouncement would have been "We need your help!" instead of "We need your help and you'll get double credits!", either. And we don't know (yet) whether the new bonus credits encourage more crunchers to switch there or it discourages crunchers because their previous work is devaluated.
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321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,488,687)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,351,076)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,673,153)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (681,323)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,109,130)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,435,120)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,410,755)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,814,614)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,119,747)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (76,372)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,842,105)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,538,832)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (209,833)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,000,264)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,647,096)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (309,764,626)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,177,104)TRP Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,556,644)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,700,416)GFN Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (216,458,853)PSA Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (741,628,878)
Message 67320 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 20:24:17 UTC - in response to Message 67317.

There have been some adjustments over the last years -mostly upwards- but always just slight increases.


I beg to differ...

For LLR, since credit used to be automated (and wildly inaccurate) based upon CPU time, there were never any adjustments made to LLR's credit. The only thing that was ever changed was the credit cap, to keep up with the increasing size of the computations.

LLR credit used to be (average of claimed credits)*factor and that factor was definitely changed every now and then, at least in earlier years. Of course, those changes were not too obvious because of the wild fluctuations in claimed credits.

On sieves, just the opposite is true -- we reduced the credit on PPS-Sieve dramatically a year or two ago. As I recall, that didn't go over very well. :)

Likewise, we recently increased -- again fairly significantly -- the credit for TRP Sieve because it was still far below what PPS-Sieve is getting, even after the reduction to PPS-Sieve.

OK, there were not only slight changes (although that dramatic reduction on PPS-Sieve was done in a series of slight reductions over a few weeks, not in one giant step ;)).
____________

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PPS Sieve Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,186,592)GFN Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (32,974)
Message 67322 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 21:00:12 UTC

I would love to do a GFN-WR, and I consider my slow GPU to be reliable and accurate enough to get the job done, but the deadline is far too short for me.
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321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 67325 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 21:12:55 UTC - in response to Message 67322.

I would love to do a GFN-WR, and I consider my slow GPU to be reliable and accurate enough to get the job done, but the deadline is far too short for me.


You need at least of mid-range GPU for GFN-WR. Unfortunately, to support your GPU we'd need to make the deadline several months long.
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321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,803,117)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,730,321)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,428,396)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,095,308)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,050,609)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,083,688)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,040,546)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,996,544)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,628,120)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (16,826)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,806,733)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,860,591)321 Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,008,468)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,122,087)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,134,301)PPS Sieve Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (3,422,883,927)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,229,912)TRP Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,682,623)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,423,801)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (35,474,863)PSA Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (61,992,528)
Message 67328 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 22:04:30 UTC

I ran the World Record GFN's awhile ago, Stock GPU & CPU Speeds, 3 out of over 100 made it and Validated, all the rest with many over 200,000 Seconds erred out. No amount of Bonus would get me to ever run them again, a total waste of Time & Electricity ... IMO
____________

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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (343,202)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (134,751)PPS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (170,924)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (230,920)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (559,667)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (108,599)SGS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (541,752)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (511,569)Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (52,454)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (20,213)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (21,378)PPS Sieve Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (683,677)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (537,735)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (516,575)GFN Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,349,526)
Message 67330 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 22:16:59 UTC

"WUProp badge"

You mean there's a badge out there I am not aware of yet?
____________

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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (343,202)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (134,751)PPS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (170,924)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (230,920)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (559,667)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (108,599)SGS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (541,752)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (511,569)Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (52,454)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (20,213)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (21,378)PPS Sieve Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (683,677)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (537,735)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (516,575)GFN Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,349,526)
Message 67331 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 22:29:45 UTC

"I ran the World Record GFN's awhile ago, Stock GPU & CPU Speeds, 3 out of over 100 made it and Validated"

I am just 12 hours into my very first GFN-WR run on my new desktop w/ GTX 660. It would take me like 2.65 years to do 100 such runs. I did some GFN-short runs, and some PPS runs with no errors and I feel lucky!!!
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PPS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (683,896)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (65,374)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (198,823)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,095,504)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,131,472)
Message 67332 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 22:30:47 UTC

But there are other possible and IMHO more effective indicators and I'm not convinced that there's really such a need for further inducement. ;)


The need for an "inducement" is clear - the Admins need more attention to the listed Projects and they indicate their priorities by bonus because at present no other tactic has had the desired long term effect on results. If they had (in the long term), they wouldn't be doing this :)

It is hard to think of what else to do in these circumstances - destruction of proposals is fine .... but that doesn't resolve an issue. A better solution may be fine - if one was known. At present there is just destructive theory as to "why not", and no constructive theory (that hasn't been used before in the long term) as to what to do to get increased participation in those areas.

No doubt we will find out in a few weeks if its worked, when they take a look to review progress. I doubt Life will go extinct on Planet Earth in the interim :)

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321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 67333 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 22:38:30 UTC - in response to Message 67328.

I ran the World Record GFN's awhile ago, Stock GPU & CPU Speeds, 3 out of over 100 made it and Validated, all the rest with many over 200,000 Seconds erred out. No amount of Bonus would get me to ever run them again, a total waste of Time & Electricity ... IMO


It's better now, fortunately. While a lot of the errors can't be avoided (driver resets and so forth), the program now detects them and restarts the calculation from the last checkpoint. This has made a huge difference.
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (314,553)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (525,138)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (345,483)PPS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (143,270)PSP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (700,948)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (794,645)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (183,070)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (120,648)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (337,165)Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (503,522)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (35,153)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (16,829,465)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (260,656,606)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (115,628)TRP Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (329,325)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,475,639)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (46,749,037)
Message 67338 - Posted: 25 Jun 2013 | 23:48:51 UTC - in response to Message 67330.

"WUProp badge"

You mean there's a badge out there I am not aware of yet?


Yes, check out the WUProp site for info. Too much to explain in a single post. But essentially total hours per sub-project. Need 20 sub-projects with 100 hours to get the first WUProp star badge.
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (210,282)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (259,871)ESP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (813,083)PPS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (331,938)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (229,743)SoB LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (113,352)SR5 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,294,016)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (106,133)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (166,895)Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (520,072)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (23,995)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (72,632)PPS Sieve Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (219,807)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (169,534)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (539,186)AP 26/27 Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (37,263)GFN Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (502,907)
Message 67344 - Posted: 26 Jun 2013 | 3:57:53 UTC - in response to Message 67317.

Well, as one of your long time volunteers with only CPU capability, it looks like I'm going to stop running these 'short' 250+ hour GFN tasks after I finish my current WU, then. Without a GPU, I can't switch to the WR tasks despite my computers proven stability over the years and I'm now going to be penalized on the 'short' tasks compared to SoB which takes the same time for more credit now. Maybe you should make the GFN-WR tasks CPU compatible if you want more crunchers. ;) Couldn't be any worse than the year long climate model tasks CPDN used to throw out that would spontaneously turn into an 'ice world' after 6 solid months of crunching. The only thing I worry about bonus credit is that it draws in users who are overclocked and can't handle these longer tasks.
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Message 67351 - Posted: 26 Jun 2013 | 13:05:04 UTC - in response to Message 67344.
Last modified: 26 Jun 2013 | 15:41:52 UTC

Well, as one of your long time volunteers with only CPU capability, it looks like I'm going to stop running these 'short' 250+ hour GFN tasks after I finish my current WU, then. Without a GPU, I can't switch to the WR tasks despite my computers proven stability over the years and I'm now going to be penalized on the 'short' tasks compared to SoB which takes the same time for more credit now. Maybe you should make the GFN-WR tasks CPU compatible if you want more crunchers. ;) Couldn't be any worse than the year long climate model tasks CPDN used to throw out that would spontaneously turn into an 'ice world' after 6 solid months of crunching. The only thing I worry about bonus credit is that it draws in users who are overclocked and can't handle these longer tasks.


You actually WANT to run a 3-month long GFN-WR task on your CPU? Unlike CPDN, which has tasks like that, our tasks can't give out intermediate credit. So if you have a failure, make a human error, or decide to switch out to something else to run a challenge, you'll be throwing away months of crunching and getting nothing in return. (CPDN's climate modeling tasks continuously produce results as they run, and the intermediate data is useful AND can be validated. LLR and GFN, on the other hand, don't produce any results until the end, so the trickle-up method of intermediate credit used by CPDN can't be used here.)

The long tasks are getting bonuses to compensate for the higher rate (and higher consequences) of errors wiping out the task after substantial computations have already been done. This caused people to be getting LOWER net credit for running the more difficult tasks. The credit bonus is intended to compensate for that higher loss rate.

I'm sorry you feel that you're being short-changed, but that's really not the case.

If you wish to switch to SoB instead of GFN, please feel free to do so. We do, in fact, want more people running SoB. It's also a better use for your CPU's abilities, since GFN can be run much more efficiently on a GPU, whereas SoB has to run on a CPU.
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Message 67353 - Posted: 26 Jun 2013 | 13:30:33 UTC - in response to Message 67338.

"WUProp badge"

You mean there's a badge out there I am not aware of yet?


Yes, check out the WUProp site for info. Too much to explain in a single post. But essentially total hours per sub-project. Need 20 sub-projects with 100 hours to get the first WUProp star badge.


Actually you need 20 Applications not projects and 100 hours each to get a bronze badge.
Currently a total of 100 applications can be used to get 5 stars with 6 levels to each star, from Bronze through to Sapphire.

Conan
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (343,202)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (134,751)PPS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (170,924)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (230,920)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (559,667)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (108,599)SGS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (541,752)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (511,569)Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (52,454)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (20,213)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (21,378)PPS Sieve Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (683,677)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (537,735)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (516,575)GFN Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,349,526)
Message 67372 - Posted: 26 Jun 2013 | 22:26:11 UTC - in response to Message 67351.

You actually WANT to run a 3-month long GFN-WR task on your CPU? Unlike CPDN, which has tasks like that, our tasks can't give out intermediate credit. So if you have a failure, make a human error, or decide to switch out to something else to run a challenge, you'll be throwing away months of crunching and getting nothing in return.


Yes! It would be a wonderful opportunity to possibly identify a world record prime. I would risk running an older spare laptop to destruction on the off chance it might succeed.
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Message 67373 - Posted: 26 Jun 2013 | 22:56:41 UTC - in response to Message 67372.

You actually WANT to run a 3-month long GFN-WR task on your CPU? Unlike CPDN, which has tasks like that, our tasks can't give out intermediate credit. So if you have a failure, make a human error, or decide to switch out to something else to run a challenge, you'll be throwing away months of crunching and getting nothing in return.


Yes! It would be a wonderful opportunity to possibly identify a world record prime. I would risk running an older spare laptop to destruction on the off chance it might succeed.


Unfortunately, we don't think it would be a good thing for the project to have such long deadlines.
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Message 67400 - Posted: 27 Jun 2013 | 19:13:21 UTC

I have seen that the higher credit will be granted for pending WUs completed before your message, but validated later. The new credit system is running now?

JayPi

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Message 67401 - Posted: 27 Jun 2013 | 19:19:44 UTC - in response to Message 67400.

I have seen that the higher credit will be granted for pending WUs completed before your message, but validated later. The new credit system is running now?

JayPi


It is running now.
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321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,016,725)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (541,582)ESP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (522,586)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,057,214)PSP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (552,958)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,056,364)SR5 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (592,676)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,022,263)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (567,024)Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (545,306)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (12,661)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (43,606,554)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,104,299)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (208,269,939)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,633,390)TRP Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,012,727)AP 26/27 Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (594,321)GFN Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (17,860,413)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (156,367,987)
Message 67410 - Posted: 28 Jun 2013 | 3:07:33 UTC

This new credit system came very right time. I am in progress to get all my badges to gold :)
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Message 67449 - Posted: 29 Jun 2013 | 11:22:42 UTC

Interesting to read the whole thread after getting home from a week beyond the black stump.

I think there will be little reason for short GFN, as it is not really that short. I will get a WR GFN next and see how it goes.

I like the idea of encouraging the steering rather than a heavy handed method like turning off sub projects until what the admins prefer is achieved.

I think it is a good idea, one that other projects like governing a nation could well look at, rewards for doing the socially needed instead of just fines for the opposite.

Perhaps I am getting too philosophical.
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Message 67450 - Posted: 29 Jun 2013 | 14:50:46 UTC
Last modified: 29 Jun 2013 | 14:56:18 UTC

I look at as being made out as a Sucker & a Slap in the Face for bothering to run all the Sub-Project's at a lower Credit Rate to Achieve the Badges that I & Others have Achieved at the Lower Credit Rate. Now with the Higher Bonus Credits some will Zoom right past our Badge Level & Laugh at us all the way to the Bank ... I spent Month's getting the Ruby SOB Badge, now with the Higher Credit I could do it in weeks ...

Maybe the Badges should now come with an Asterisk to Denote they were Achieved with Higher Credits than other's got for Achieving the same Level ... ;)
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Message 67451 - Posted: 29 Jun 2013 | 15:33:19 UTC - in response to Message 67450.

I look at as being made out as a Sucker & a Slap in the Face for bothering to run all the Sub-Project's at a lower Credit Rate to Achieve the Badges that I & Others have Achieved at the Lower Credit Rate. Now with the Higher Bonus Credits some will Zoom right past our Badge Level & Laugh at us all the way to the Bank ...


So you're saying that credit shouldn't be changed because it's unfair to people who have crunched in the past? If so, please look at the following, where someone was complaining about a previous credit change, and another person incredulously ("Your Kidding Right ???") called them out on it.

http://www.primegrid.com/forum_thread.php?id=3467&nowrap=true#37939:

One more thought.

The teams at PG are competitive. By cutting the credits in half, you've effectively double the leads each team has on teams with less credit. Will you cut each teams points in half or do you favor giving other teams this windfall.


Your Kidding Right ???

The Credits each Team has/had were earned under what the Project was giving & every Team had the same chance to earn more or less Credit than what they have now.

If a 777 Member Team can't keep up with a 118 Member Team you shouldn't come crying for a Team Credit Reduction when the Credits are lowered ... IMO


Recognize that? You should, because it's your post.

Therefore, my response to you is to agree with you to such a degree that I'll simply quote your own words:

Your Kidding Right ???


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Credit: 331,682,718
RAC: 58,810
321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,014,405)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,734,854)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,421,149)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,576,209)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,825,243)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,352,326)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,986,628)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,248,659)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,734,170)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,416,106)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,400,237)321 Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,000,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,000,977)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,843,367)PPS Sieve Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (71,422,417)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,473,750)TRP Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,243,608)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,879,269)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (148,066,794)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,042,125)
Message 67452 - Posted: 29 Jun 2013 | 16:43:22 UTC
Last modified: 29 Jun 2013 | 16:43:47 UTC

Even though I do not have a GPU that can do GFN-WR (mine is way to slow) and I originally thought that with such a long running unit that it should also get bonus, I put on my admin cap (work related) and put things together.

I said, well so I do not get the bonus there, but hey I have a 3rd Gen CPU and I am going to get my bonuses in other ways, I will smoke some SOBs. It looks like this will get through 4 units in about 100 hours. Not bad, and it will be nice to get that next badge quicker. I also have a Haswell I am working on getting running this week, so I will also have that run SOB and we'll see how fast that will munch those up.

We all go through changes in our lives, be them good or bad. College, job, loss of job, marriage, divorce, etc. This is really no different. Why complain? Take advantage of what you are able to. It's all just worthless points in the end, but someday something good could come from the numbers we have crunched and then we all will be proud.
____________
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Posts: 108
ID: 89957
Credit: 19,726,501
RAC: 15,119
321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (435,468)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (161,733)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (62,720)PPS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (671,994)PSP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (951,723)SoB LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (14,935,944)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (204,240)SGS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (58,225)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (410,126)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (432,304)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (120,713)PPS Sieve Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (562,390)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (102,989)TRP Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (139,663)AP 26/27 Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (60,645)GFN Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (414,001)
Message 67455 - Posted: 29 Jun 2013 | 22:13:47 UTC

May I suggest to somehow flag those bonus-credit-experiment sub-projects in PG preferences?

p.s. Jeez, my first experimental SOB has been invalidated 3 times out 7 on prejudice. Really, something must be done about it.

____________
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Points just make me sick.

Michael GoetzProject donor
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Joined: 21 Jan 10
Posts: 9354
ID: 53948
Credit: 101,553,725
RAC: 18,346
321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 67456 - Posted: 29 Jun 2013 | 22:35:30 UTC - in response to Message 67455.

May I suggest to somehow flag those bonus-credit-experiment sub-projects in PG preferences?


That's on my to-do list.

____________
My lucky number is 75898^524288+1
Please do not PM me with support questions. They will usually go unanswered. Ask on the forums instead. Thank you!

Michael GoetzProject donor
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Joined: 21 Jan 10
Posts: 9354
ID: 53948
Credit: 101,553,725
RAC: 18,346
321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 67457 - Posted: 29 Jun 2013 | 23:15:52 UTC - in response to Message 67456.

May I suggest to somehow flag those bonus-credit-experiment sub-projects in PG preferences?


That's on my to-do list.


My to-do list just got shorter.
____________
My lucky number is 75898^524288+1
Please do not PM me with support questions. They will usually go unanswered. Ask on the forums instead. Thank you!

Michael Millerick
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Joined: 4 Feb 09
Posts: 609
ID: 35074
Credit: 120,918,304
RAC: 213
321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,063,954)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (665,748)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,025,432)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (120,091)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,123,986)PSP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,134,556)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,064,898)SR5 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,043,015)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,072,821)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,005,623)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,042,977)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (20,737)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,911,344)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,782,743)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (45,157,854)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,034,014)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,070,774)AP 26/27 Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,169,245)GFN Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,800,771)PSA Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (46,607,721)
Message 67462 - Posted: 30 Jun 2013 | 3:55:32 UTC - in response to Message 67457.

The project preferences page says that TRP Sieve has the 10% conjecture bonus, was this intended?
____________

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Joined: 21 Jan 10
Posts: 9354
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Credit: 101,553,725
RAC: 18,346
321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 67463 - Posted: 30 Jun 2013 | 4:01:37 UTC - in response to Message 67462.

The project preferences page says that TRP Sieve has the 10% conjecture bonus, was this intended?


Yes.
____________
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Posts: 43
ID: 130504
Credit: 25,319,187
RAC: 0
PPS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (227,770)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,169,730)PPS Sieve Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,808,423)TRP Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (17,004)GFN Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (14,075,598)
Message 67464 - Posted: 30 Jun 2013 | 5:02:17 UTC

Well I suppose this is rather convenient for me, since I've been crunching GFN-WR tasks for a while now.

I'll switch back over to it once I recoordinate my computers to make use of the ATI 7970 that's currently running PPS sieves, and to open up my 580 again that's running GPUgrid tasks.
(I have a number of projects I like to keep running constantly, so things can get a little confusing :P)

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Posts: 102
ID: 797
Credit: 3,346,263,167
RAC: 0
321 LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (28,550,383)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,993,833)PPS LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (184,058,737)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,300,356)SoB LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,567,970)SR5 LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (59,339,229)SGS LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (86,061,078)TRP LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (86,131,776)Woodall LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (16,020,739)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (406,830)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,481,806)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (276,798,443)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,262,813)TRP Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (268,260,336)AP 26/27 Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,404,707)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (27,367,635)PSA Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (2,270,254,653)
Message 67465 - Posted: 30 Jun 2013 | 6:48:44 UTC

It's a nice idea to get more people to crunch on those longer workunit projects, I support it.

While This is good and all, there is some variation in credit.
I've compiled the below data based off of my workunits, It highlights an inconsistency in the amount of credit generated per work amount.
Any thing not listed I don't have workunits to compare.

cps = credits per second.

CUL = 0.0120261437 cps
321 = 0.0087051142 cps
PPS = 0.0068831168 cps
PPSE = 0.0079468085 cps
SR5 = 0.0125550660 cps
SGS = 0.0081448979 cps
TRP = 0.0139831 cps
TRP Sieve = 0.0357565476 cps
WOO = 0.0106319845 cps

Gpu:
PPS Sieve = 3.1801886792 cps
GFN Short = 0.7403598971 cps (Pre bonus)

Ideally these should be as close as possible.

BUT
It's based off of my hardware, your hardware may have different strengths and weaknesses.

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Credit: 101,553,725
RAC: 18,346
321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 67468 - Posted: 30 Jun 2013 | 11:37:43 UTC - in response to Message 67465.

It's a nice idea to get more people to crunch on those longer workunit projects, I support it.

While This is good and all, there is some variation in credit.


A couple of thoughts on this.

I'm guessing your measurements are made under actual crunching conditions, with all cores blazing, right?

When we re-did the credit for LLR earlier this year, we ran benchmarks on all of the LLR projects so we could equalize the credit between them. So why do you see a difference? There's a couple of reasons:

1) Our tests are done with the computer idle. If all the cores are going, there will likely be more cache misses than with just one instance of LLR running. In order to get the most consistent benchmarks, only a single core is used. Depending on the CPU, you will also see variations in clock speed due to TurboBoost as you vary the number of busy cores. The slowdown in LLR speed as you increase the number of instances is well documented -- but this slowdown varies by project, as well as by CPU. That's going to affect the real life numbers you see when crunching.

2) The benchmarks are done on a Core2 CPU. This is a relatively modern CPU architecture, except that it does not have TurboBoost or Hyperthreading. Both of those would add a lot of variability to the benchmarks, so we prefer to use Core2 as the baseline architecture for benchmarks.

3) Since we did the benchmarks, some of the LLR projects may have changed FFT sizes which would throw the credit off.

4) On the conjecture LLR projects, (and some other LLR projects), the varying k's cause several FFT sizes to be used, depending on the WU, which again throws the credit off. (This is most pronounced in SR5.)


1 & 2 are by design, and therefore won't change. There will always be some variation between the results we see on an idle computer of architecture X, versus a fully loaded computer of architecture Y. As you also mentioned, some CPUs do better or worse on specific projects, so that's also going to cause your specific credit rates to be somewhat uneven. There's not much one can do about this, nor would you want to.

We've been discussing internally an improvement to the credit system that could address 3 & 4. We're not ready to talk about that yet.

As for credit between the classes of projects (LLR, GFN, Sieve), those have never been equal and likely never will be. Sieves get more credit, by design, in order to encourage people to sieve. This probably leads to the credit hunters sieving and the prime hunters running LLR, which isn't a terrible thing. GFN was intended to be an entirely GPU project and its credit is based off a completely different formula, since its 'competition' is PPS-Sieve on a GPU rather than LLR on a CPU. (If you remember, when GFN came online, LLR credit was based on CPU time and was a disaster, and the sieves are fixed-credit, so there was nothing similar to the way GFN credit works.) I'm not saying GFN should get the same credit as PPS-Sieve (it gets less), but the formula used to compute its credit is based off of GPU performance numbers rather than CPU performance numbers.


Ideally these should be as close as possible.


Within a class of projects, such as LLR, yes. But different classes intentionally get different credit.

BUT
It's based off of my hardware, your hardware may have different strengths and weaknesses.


Indeed.
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Please do not PM me with support questions. They will usually go unanswered. Ask on the forums instead. Thank you!

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Joined: 20 Jun 09
Posts: 351
ID: 42198
Credit: 11,898,570
RAC: 35
321 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (547,769)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (158,867)PPS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (162,534)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (134,373)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (510,012)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (266,757)SGS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (510,560)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (242,439)Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (508,989)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,123)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (229,801)PPS Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,317,221)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (21,147)TRP Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (333,494)AP 26/27 Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (24,117)GFN Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,730,320)
Message 67477 - Posted: 30 Jun 2013 | 22:09:48 UTC - in response to Message 67465.

It's a nice idea to get more people to crunch on those longer workunit projects, I support it.

{snip section}

BUT
It's based off of my hardware, your hardware may have different strengths and weaknesses.


I agree with the first sentence, but with my spreadsheet I have been running for over 3 years with a wide variety of computers I totallty disagree with the table. I find for example that Woodall gets slightly better credit than Cullen, you have them the wrong way round.

Ok I accept that in reality there is no way that any such list is going to be accurate for any other machine, things like background work, cache, memory amount and speed, MB layout, heat, pipeline transfer speed and for all I know what colour socks you wear can change things.

If you have more than one machine and a lot of curiosity try to get a table for each machine, I expect the order will be different for each one!!

I find the current credit system better than the old one, and encouraging but not forcing desired projects is something I fully approve of.
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My lucky number is 9291*2^1085585+1

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Posts: 102
ID: 797
Credit: 3,346,263,167
RAC: 0
321 LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (28,550,383)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,993,833)PPS LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (184,058,737)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,300,356)SoB LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,567,970)SR5 LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (59,339,229)SGS LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (86,061,078)TRP LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (86,131,776)Woodall LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (16,020,739)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (406,830)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,481,806)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (276,798,443)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,262,813)TRP Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (268,260,336)AP 26/27 Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,404,707)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (27,367,635)PSA Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (2,270,254,653)
Message 67480 - Posted: 30 Jun 2013 | 23:23:05 UTC - in response to Message 67477.


If you have more than one machine and a lot of curiosity try to get a table for each machine, I expect the order will be different for each one!!


My table is based off of more then 100 exactly the same machines. Only difference about them is each has a different set of worknunts over many subprojects.
The workunit times don't differ more then 1 or 2% between the machines.



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Credit: 4,357,976,573
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Tour de Primes 2012Tour de Primes 2012Tour de Primes 2015Tour de Primes 2016321 LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (58,819,691)Cullen LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,772,827)ESP LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (54,686,062)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (56,429,081)PPS LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (257,757,704)PSP LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (74,170,654)SoB LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (51,979,891)SR5 LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (105,171,537)SGS LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (141,212,728)TPS LLR (retired) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (235,439)TRP LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,499,725)Woodall LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (53,500,764)321 Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,322,150)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (83,794,448)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (101,781,032)PPS Sieve Double Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000,000 credits (1,920,968,601)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (203,523,358)TRP Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,489,157)AP 26/27 Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (100,770,267)GFN Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (525,185,104)PSA Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (257,080,048)
Message 67484 - Posted: 1 Jul 2013 | 2:08:25 UTC - in response to Message 67480.


If you have more than one machine and a lot of curiosity try to get a table for each machine, I expect the order will be different for each one!!


My table is based off of more then 100 exactly the same machines. Only difference about them is each has a different set of worknunts over many subprojects.
The workunit times don't differ more then 1 or 2% between the machines.




One other thing that can often have substantial effect on the computations times of various sub-projects is the "mix" of work one has going on multi-core CPUs. For example, running a mix of longer (e.g. 321 LLR) searches with shorter (e.g. SR5 LLR) can produce longer times for the shorter work than would be typical if one ran only the shorter work. Likewise, some have reported shorter LLR times on some CPUs when running a mix of LLR and sieve.

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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (343,202)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (134,751)PPS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (170,924)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (230,920)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (559,667)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (108,599)SGS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (541,752)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (511,569)Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (52,454)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (20,213)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (21,378)PPS Sieve Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (683,677)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (537,735)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (516,575)GFN Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,349,526)
Message 67492 - Posted: 1 Jul 2013 | 16:06:33 UTC - in response to Message 67452.

[quote]I have a 3rd Gen CPU and I am going to get my bonuses in other ways, I will smoke some SOBs. It looks like this will get through 4 units in about 100 hours.quote]

PB, I also have a new i7-3770. I assume you are not hyperthreadding, and not concurrently running GPU task. Can you please advise your prefs. to get these done in short order?

Thanks,
Charles
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321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,014,405)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,734,854)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,421,149)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,576,209)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,825,243)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,352,326)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,986,628)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,248,659)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,734,170)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,416,106)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,400,237)321 Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,000,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,000,977)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,843,367)PPS Sieve Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (71,422,417)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,473,750)TRP Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,243,608)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,879,269)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (148,066,794)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,042,125)
Message 67494 - Posted: 1 Jul 2013 | 17:07:50 UTC - in response to Message 67492.

[quote]I have a 3rd Gen CPU and I am going to get my bonuses in other ways, I will smoke some SOBs. It looks like this will get through 4 units in about 100 hours.[quote]

PB, I also have a new i7-3770. I assume you are not hyperthreadding, and not concurrently running GPU task. Can you please advise your prefs. to get these done in short order?

Thanks,
Charles

Running 4 non-hyper, running Collatz on my NVidia GT640 card. Collatz runs about 4800-5500 seconds and around 1 second or less CPU time (very efficient).

I am currently at 100 hours on them, and most will finish within an hour (so about 102 hours at current N/K size)

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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (186,594)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (106,665)ESP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (502,416)PPS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (504,111)PSP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (513,785)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (564,944)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,790,118)SGS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (501,099)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (46,235)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (708,706)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (133,626)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (21,527)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (14,729,132)PPS Sieve Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (132,786,707)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (510,317)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (620,991)AP 26/27 Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (418,876)GFN Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,795,613)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,329,123)
Message 67495 - Posted: 1 Jul 2013 | 17:19:56 UTC - in response to Message 67494.

[quote]I have a 3rd Gen CPU and I am going to get my bonuses in other ways, I will smoke some SOBs. It looks like this will get through 4 units in about 100 hours.[quote]

PB, I also have a new i7-3770. I assume you are not hyperthreadding, and not concurrently running GPU task. Can you please advise your prefs. to get these done in short order?

Thanks,
Charles

Running 4 non-hyper, running Collatz on my NVidia GT640 card. Collatz runs about 4800-5500 seconds and around 1 second or less CPU time (very efficient).

I am currently at 100 hours on them, and most will finish within an hour (so about 102 hours at current N/K size)


Currently all GPU projects need a full free cpu core for best performance except PPS Sieve/GFN.

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321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,063,954)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (665,748)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,025,432)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (120,091)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,123,986)PSP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,134,556)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,064,898)SR5 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,043,015)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,072,821)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,005,623)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,042,977)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (20,737)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,911,344)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,782,743)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (45,157,854)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,034,014)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,070,774)AP 26/27 Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,169,245)GFN Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,800,771)PSA Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (46,607,721)
Message 67497 - Posted: 1 Jul 2013 | 18:26:33 UTC - in response to Message 67495.

[quote]I have a 3rd Gen CPU and I am going to get my bonuses in other ways, I will smoke some SOBs. It looks like this will get through 4 units in about 100 hours.[quote]

PB, I also have a new i7-3770. I assume you are not hyperthreadding, and not concurrently running GPU task. Can you please advise your prefs. to get these done in short order?

Thanks,
Charles

Running 4 non-hyper, running Collatz on my NVidia GT640 card. Collatz runs about 4800-5500 seconds and around 1 second or less CPU time (very efficient).

I am currently at 100 hours on them, and most will finish within an hour (so about 102 hours at current N/K size)


Currently all GPU projects need a full free cpu core for best performance except PPS Sieve/GFN.
When I run PPS Sieve through BOINC on my GPUs, it says that it is using .8 CPU cores for each WU.

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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (186,594)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (106,665)ESP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (502,416)PPS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (504,111)PSP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (513,785)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (564,944)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,790,118)SGS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (501,099)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (46,235)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (708,706)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (133,626)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (21,527)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (14,729,132)PPS Sieve Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (132,786,707)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (510,317)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (620,991)AP 26/27 Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (418,876)GFN Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,795,613)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,329,123)
Message 67498 - Posted: 1 Jul 2013 | 18:37:33 UTC - in response to Message 67497.

[quote]I have a 3rd Gen CPU and I am going to get my bonuses in other ways, I will smoke some SOBs. It looks like this will get through 4 units in about 100 hours.[quote]

PB, I also have a new i7-3770. I assume you are not hyperthreadding, and not concurrently running GPU task. Can you please advise your prefs. to get these done in short order?

Thanks,
Charles

Running 4 non-hyper, running Collatz on my NVidia GT640 card. Collatz runs about 4800-5500 seconds and around 1 second or less CPU time (very efficient).

I am currently at 100 hours on them, and most will finish within an hour (so about 102 hours at current N/K size)


Currently all GPU projects need a full free cpu core for best performance except PPS Sieve/GFN.
When I run PPS Sieve through BOINC on my GPUs, it says that it is using .8 CPU cores for each WU.


This should only be a cosmetic issue in BM. You need to check the real cpu usage in task manager.

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321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 67499 - Posted: 1 Jul 2013 | 18:56:35 UTC - in response to Message 67497.

When I run PPS Sieve through BOINC on my GPUs, it says that it is using .8 CPU cores for each WU.


Le's try to steer this conversation back towards the credit bonuses, please. Or continue the GPU/CPU conversation in a more appropriate location.

Likewise, discussion about credit rates in general (e.g., Cullen gets more credit per second than Woodall, or how different k's in SR5 and TRP produce different credit rates) should be discussed elsewhere.

This isn't a topic about GPU crunching. It's not a topic about credit. It's about the credit bonuses.

Thank you.
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (343,202)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (134,751)PPS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (170,924)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (230,920)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (559,667)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (108,599)SGS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (541,752)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (511,569)Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (52,454)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (20,213)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (21,378)PPS Sieve Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (683,677)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (537,735)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (516,575)GFN Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,349,526)
Message 67500 - Posted: 1 Jul 2013 | 19:48:03 UTC - in response to Message 67499.

I sincerely apologize for sending this thread off the tracks.
I should have sent a PM.
Thanks,
Charles
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (186,594)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (106,665)ESP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (502,416)PPS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (504,111)PSP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (513,785)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (564,944)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,790,118)SGS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (501,099)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (46,235)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (708,706)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (133,626)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (21,527)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (14,729,132)PPS Sieve Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (132,786,707)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (510,317)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (620,991)AP 26/27 Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (418,876)GFN Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,795,613)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,329,123)
Message 67574 - Posted: 7 Jul 2013 | 7:12:09 UTC

321 llr AVX needs more tweaking. It gives lesser credits than SR5 and PSP llr from my last results.

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321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 67577 - Posted: 7 Jul 2013 | 12:13:50 UTC - in response to Message 67574.

321 llr AVX needs more tweaking. It gives lesser credits than SR5 and PSP llr from my last results.


It's not clear from your comment whether you're referring to the granted credit (i.e., credit per task) or the credit rate (i.e., credit per hour). So I'll answer it both ways:

Credit rate:

Without commenting on whether this is correct or not (we're in the process if reviewing credit for all LLR), it's important for everyone to understand that credit is NEVER going to be flat across the projects on any CPU other than whatever CPU we happen to use as the benchmark reference. Difference cache designs, ALU designs, cache sizes, memory speeds, etc., are going to cause different projects to behave differently on different computers. That can't be helped. Different computers are also going to react differently when you have all cores running as opposed to running only a single core.

Also, don't forget that both SR5 and PSP now get small bonuses for being conjecture projects, and while 321 and PSP both get a bonus for being long tasks, PSP gets a larger bonus. The net bonus for SR5 and 321 is 10%, so neither has an advantage in that regard, but PSP should be getting about 35% more credit per hour than 321.

Finally, the credit formula for SR5 and to a lesser extent TRP doesn't handlle the wide variety of k's very well. Depending on which SR5 tasks you're running, this could cause discrepancies in the credit rate between SR5 and other projects.

Granted credit:

If you meant credit per task, you'd better check your results again. The average credit right now for SR5 is 300 credits and the average credit for 321 is 1604. Therefore, there's no way you have an SR5 that was larger than a 321. The only way they could come close is if one of your SR5s was prime, which requires more processing and therefore more credit is granted (this applies to only one of the +1 or -1 forms and I don't remember which.) Even so, the highest amount of credit granted to an SR5 task is 1207 and the lowest amount of credit granted to any 321 is 1444, so it's not possible for you to be getting more credit for SR5 than for 321. If you have an example of that happening, please give us links to the results or workunits because something would be broken.

PSP is a lot longer than 321, of course, so the credits are also higher, averaging 8549 credits. Did you mean PPS?
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (186,594)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (106,665)ESP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (502,416)PPS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (504,111)PSP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (513,785)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (564,944)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,790,118)SGS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (501,099)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (46,235)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (708,706)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (133,626)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (21,527)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (14,729,132)PPS Sieve Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (132,786,707)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (510,317)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (620,991)AP 26/27 Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (418,876)GFN Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,795,613)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,329,123)
Message 67580 - Posted: 7 Jul 2013 | 12:55:15 UTC
Last modified: 7 Jul 2013 | 12:55:34 UTC

In case on your Granted credit here is my list based on credits/runtime:

321 llr: 35,605 | 1616cr | 163cr/h
PSP llr: 138,230 | 10108cr | 263cr/h
SR5: 4,859 | 305cr | 226cr/h

321 llr runs also longer but has a very low rate. All results based on i5-2500k@4Ghz AVX 3 WUs in progress (4 slowed down too much)

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Credit: 101,553,725
RAC: 18,346
321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 67585 - Posted: 7 Jul 2013 | 14:17:40 UTC - in response to Message 67580.

In case on your Granted credit here is my list based on credits/runtime:

321 llr: 35,605 | 1616cr | 163cr/h
PSP llr: 138,230 | 10108cr | 263cr/h
SR5: 4,859 | 305cr | 226cr/h

321 llr runs also longer but has a very low rate. All results based on i5-2500k@4Ghz AVX 3 WUs in progress (4 slowed down too much)


I suspect that you're seeing the longer tasks slowing down more on your CPU because of cache misses. Therefore, you get a lower cr/hr on the longer tasks than on the shorter tasks.

Most likely, that's due to your running multiple copies of (i.e., three cores) while the benchmarks are run using only one core. The multi-core slowdown will be more pronounced on larger tasks, although this is going to vary depending on the exact CPU you have.

To reiterate: under ideal conditions, the rates are pretty good, but you're not running in the same configuration as the benchmarks, so your results are not the same.

"Your mileage may vary", in this case, is more like "your mileage will vary."

If you wish to continue this discussion, please do so in a more appropriate location. This really has very little to do with the credit bonuses. Thank you.
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Posts: 1
ID: 250846
Credit: 297,205,298
RAC: 0
PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (297,116,569)GFN Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (88,373)
Message 69633 - Posted: 5 Oct 2013 | 9:29:34 UTC
Last modified: 5 Oct 2013 | 9:30:04 UTC

I was wondering, now that it's had time to bed in, whether you've measured a significant increase in the proportion of people choosing projects with long-running jobs?

I ask because, and at the risk of drifting back off-topic, the reason I choose not to run these tasks is nothing to do with their run time, but simply because I only get ONE QUARTER of the credits/hr from GFN as from, say, PPS. On my hardware (Intel 4770K CPU, 2xTitan GPU), I'd need a 400% bonus just to break even, so the odd 10%-50% bonus is irrelevant, falling between the cracks of the benchmarking irregularities.

It would be interesting to see some before/after figures.

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Joined: 21 Jan 10
Posts: 9354
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Credit: 101,553,725
RAC: 18,346
321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 69634 - Posted: 5 Oct 2013 | 10:56:00 UTC

Not at this time, no.
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Joined: 25 Dec 12
Posts: 160
ID: 186381
Credit: 351,960,622
RAC: 11,798
321 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (821,875)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,261,473)ESP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (535,630)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (671,703)PPS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (575,694)PSP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,709,760)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,516,446)SR5 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,056,683)SGS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (632,629)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,734,559)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,626,395)PPS Sieve Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (130,366,683)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (555,042)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,089,296)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,134,704)GFN Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,672,050)
Message 70108 - Posted: 17 Oct 2013 | 2:13:05 UTC

The current NVIDIA gpu OpenCL versions of GFN short and GFN World Record both work reliably with my GTX TITAN and both of the apps, especially the GFN-WR OpenCL version with the bonus credit, are better for earned credit compared with cpu tasks on my current cpu solution, an AMD Vishera.

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Posts: 112
ID: 242019
Credit: 283,243,117
RAC: 735
321 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (29,326)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (14,639)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,020,182)PSP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (48,561)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (162,877)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (198,570)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (25,570)Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (17,205)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,393,148)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (226,419,957)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,661,419)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,495,590)AP 26/27 Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (21,553,233)GFN Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (13,279,494)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,923,280)
Message 71897 - Posted: 5 Jan 2014 | 14:38:51 UTC
Last modified: 5 Jan 2014 | 14:48:24 UTC

Hello !

I am wondering why there is such a huge difference in credits
within Primegrid sub-projects ?

Is this linked to your needs ?

Higher credits for "important" researches ?

Don't you think you would maybe attract more crunchers if the credit for GFN was a "little" higher.

We get approx 7x less credit / day running GFN Short <-> PPS Sieve ...

A good compromise for GFN Short could be to use the same kind of credit as GPUGRID : approx 150000 points / 8 hours

I understand we don't crunch for points, but it is an incentive for many of us ;)

And personnaly I don't think I will crunch on GFN after the Challenge or once I reached 4m.
Except if credits are increased to a reasonnable level ;)

If I am right, it's the same for many crunchers / team ?

Thank You
Kind Regards,
Philippe

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Joined: 21 Jan 10
Posts: 9354
ID: 53948
Credit: 101,553,725
RAC: 18,346
321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 71898 - Posted: 5 Jan 2014 | 14:46:56 UTC

It's.... complicated.
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Please do not PM me with support questions. They will usually go unanswered. Ask on the forums instead. Thank you!

Profile Phil1966Project donor
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Joined: 20 Jul 13
Posts: 112
ID: 242019
Credit: 283,243,117
RAC: 735
321 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (29,326)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (14,639)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,020,182)PSP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (48,561)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (162,877)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (198,570)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (25,570)Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (17,205)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,393,148)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (226,419,957)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,661,419)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,495,590)AP 26/27 Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (21,553,233)GFN Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (13,279,494)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,923,280)
Message 71899 - Posted: 5 Jan 2014 | 14:49:50 UTC - in response to Message 71898.

OK ...

Kelly DaviesProject donor
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Posts: 88
ID: 58144
Credit: 4,065,385,393
RAC: 3,617,047
321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,046,071)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,282,176)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,106,610)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,788,391)PPS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,097,463)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,475,366)SoB LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (100,340,046)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,027,344)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,259,781)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,010,534)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,077,196)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,139,793)PPS Sieve Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (3,880,290,680)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (24,236,704)TRP Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,588)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,117,059)GFN Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,782,029)PSA Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (360,088)
Message 77810 - Posted: 3 Jul 2014 | 3:26:47 UTC - in response to Message 71899.

OK ...

lol.
sorry had to laugh.....
Just read through this whole thread. good read.
All your answers were in the thread. sorry for the necro-bump.

Waiting a year for a wingman on a long SoB task sucks and we need some kind of incentive.

I think the credit bonus system is great. It will never be perfect.

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Joined: 25 Mar 11
Posts: 397
ID: 92179
Credit: 1,613,952,244
RAC: 1,044,015
321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,318,595)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,655,866)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,642,501)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,991,614)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,257,524)PSP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,891,779)SoB LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,261,655)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,096,480)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,403,813)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,760,330)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,726,778)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,094,130)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,139,500)PPS Sieve Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (979,078,386)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,235,150)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,376,844)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,467,327)GFN Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (387,366,834)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (103,206,213)
Message 79006 - Posted: 25 Aug 2014 | 8:54:41 UTC

New thought. What about an early return credit bonus similar to GPUgrid? This may cut down on high "In Progress" WUs and reduce waiting for validation times by encouraging people to reduce their number of WUs cache. Something like a 10% bonus if returned in half the time of each sub projects deadline. Or a multistage rate such as 15% if returned in a 1/4 the deadline time, 10% in half, and 5% if by 3/4. If there's reservations about how effective this may be you could do a trial and find out. If very little or no difference is found, just revert. You could choose to apply only to the longer sub projects that already receive long job bonuses (where the long wait problems occur and gets worst the longer the job/deadline) and/or to progressively increase the early return bonus the longer the job/deadline is. Thoughts anyone?
____________
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-Benjamin Franklin

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Joined: 15 Aug 05
Posts: 1605
ID: 352
Credit: 1,750,261,754
RAC: 1,219,463
321 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (14,586,835)Cullen LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,758,697)ESP LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,183,757)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (21,044,302)PPS LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (51,016,093)PSP LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,462,639)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,553,364)SR5 LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,233,642)SGS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,037,618)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (43,033)TRP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,588,622)Woodall LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,037,694)321 Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,024,795)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,142,109)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,357,260)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (372,790,270)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,288,222)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,149,354)AP 26/27 Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,062,973)GFN Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (510,890,341)PSA Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (525,027,972)
Message 79007 - Posted: 25 Aug 2014 | 9:22:55 UTC

Well, there is an incentive already in place for LLR early return - becoming initial prime finder. Yes, perhaps getting next badge quickly as well.
That's a participant point of view.
What would it be from project perspective? We are not in a hurry to get results ASAP nor lowering "in progress" queue in order to lower server load.

Credit incentive for early return might still not solve "waiting for validation" due to wingman. Some participants having long work cache because their [other] projects have no work 24/7/365.
Guess we wouldn't know if it makes any difference (lowering validation times) until we try.

In a long, I would rather see scheduler sending results within workuint to similarly fast/slow hosts (in term of turn-around time).
This would please fast ones and doesn't hurt slow ones.
Easy to say, harder to implement...and there are still posibble drawbacks.
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Badge score: 1*1 + 5*2 + 7*2 + 8*12 + 9*1 + 11*1 + 12*2 = 165

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Joined: 16 Jan 10
Posts: 54
ID: 53685
Credit: 348,700,578
RAC: 47,771
321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (102,736)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (104,922)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,178,071)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (102,961)PPS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,373,768)PSP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (529,851)SoB LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (107,753)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,683,628)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,298,472)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,120,723)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (102,666)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (202,190)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (202,834)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (782,071)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (318,250,607)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,032,063)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,343,795)AP 26/27 Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (10,565)GFN Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,145,331)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,030,023)
Message 79009 - Posted: 25 Aug 2014 | 10:40:38 UTC

Another suggestion: Maybe ESP LLR should get a 10% long task credit bonus too. These numbers have (soon) the size of the TRP LRR wu's, when the credit bonus was introduced.

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Joined: 15 Aug 05
Posts: 1605
ID: 352
Credit: 1,750,261,754
RAC: 1,219,463
321 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (14,586,835)Cullen LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,758,697)ESP LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,183,757)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (21,044,302)PPS LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (51,016,093)PSP LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,462,639)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,553,364)SR5 LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,233,642)SGS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,037,618)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (43,033)TRP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,588,622)Woodall LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,037,694)321 Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,024,795)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,142,109)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,357,260)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (372,790,270)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,288,222)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,149,354)AP 26/27 Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,062,973)GFN Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (510,890,341)PSA Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (525,027,972)
Message 79011 - Posted: 25 Aug 2014 | 13:12:04 UTC

ESP LLR
Recent average CPU time: 13:44:36

TRP LLR
Recent average CPU time: 23:17:35

I would consider ESP LLR still quite small - if those numbers are correct/representative
Anyway, fast computers are doing ESP LLR in <6 hours.
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Badge score: 1*1 + 5*2 + 7*2 + 8*12 + 9*1 + 11*1 + 12*2 = 165

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Joined: 21 Jan 10
Posts: 9354
ID: 53948
Credit: 101,553,725
RAC: 18,346
321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,152,064)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,252,023)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,900,765)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,313)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,162,350)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,877,196)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,036,953)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,426,791)
Message 79013 - Posted: 25 Aug 2014 | 13:47:19 UTC - in response to Message 79006.

New thought. What about an early return credit bonus similar to GPUgrid


GPUGrid has a really good reason for wanting a fast turnaround time on there tasks: they need the results from each task to generate the next tasks. They encourage a fast turnaround time by giving a 50% bonus to tasks returned within 24 hours, or at least that's how I remember it from back when I did some crunching there several years ago.

At PrimeGrid, we're concerned with the overall throughput (i.e., average number of tasks per day completed) rather than how fast each task is returned. Unlike GPUGrid, from a science perspective, it doesn't matter if some tasks take a long time to finish. "Eventually" is good enough.

That doesn't mean we wouldn't be happy if tasks came back quicker, so the idea still has merit. However, it's unlikely to have much of an effect.

If you look at the cause of the long delays in tasks, it's primarily from deadline misses. There are two main causes for deadline misses: computers that have left PrimeGrid, and poor time scheduling on the part of the BOINC client.

A bonus for returning tasks quickly won't help much with computers that have abandoned the project. Gone is still gone.

It could, in theory, cause some users to set up their computers so BOINC is less likely to miss the deadlines, e.g., by running only one project on a computer or running smaller or now queues. However, since there's already huge incentives for doing that (being the prime finder, not having your tasks go over the deadline and lose credit (which happens on some projects, although not at PrimeGrid), etc.), I'm not sure that a credit boost would have a significant impact.
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Message 79043 - Posted: 26 Aug 2014 | 9:58:15 UTC - in response to Message 79013.

New thought. What about an early return credit bonus similar to GPUgrid


GPUGrid has a really good reason for wanting a fast turnaround time on there tasks: they need the results from each task to generate the next tasks. They encourage a fast turnaround time by giving a 50% bonus to tasks returned within 24 hours, or at least that's how I remember it from back when I did some crunching there several years ago.

At PrimeGrid, we're concerned with the overall throughput (i.e., average number of tasks per day completed) rather than how fast each task is returned. Unlike GPUGrid, from a science perspective, it doesn't matter if some tasks take a long time to finish. "Eventually" is good enough.

That doesn't mean we wouldn't be happy if tasks came back quicker, so the idea still has merit. However, it's unlikely to have much of an effect.

If you look at the cause of the long delays in tasks, it's primarily from deadline misses. There are two main causes for deadline misses: computers that have left PrimeGrid, and poor time scheduling on the part of the BOINC client.

A bonus for returning tasks quickly won't help much with computers that have abandoned the project. Gone is still gone.

It could, in theory, cause some users to set up their computers so BOINC is less likely to miss the deadlines, e.g., by running only one project on a computer or running smaller or now queues. However, since there's already huge incentives for doing that (being the prime finder, not having your tasks go over the deadline and lose credit (which happens on some projects, although not at PrimeGrid), etc.), I'm not sure that a credit boost would have a significant impact.


You could setup a small experiment, give everyone that returns the unit they downloaded within 24 hours a 10% bonus for the next week. The 10% is just a number, just make it something that you can easily change. You could even do it thru a blind test, by not announcing it, and then after one week announce that for the last week you have been 'testing' and are ready to implement it in a further 'test' of another time frame. That will give you both a blind test and an open test to see if it made any difference. At the end of the second time period you can check to see if people go back to their old ways of several days cache, or maintain the quicker turnaround time.

The only problem I see with this idea is what happens when you go back to the original credit amounts, will people see any reason to keep returning the units in a timely manner? This could mean keeping the credits slightly higher for quite a long time, but only for those that maintain the quick turnaround time of course.

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Message 79046 - Posted: 26 Aug 2014 | 10:54:38 UTC

Extending credit to faster returns, within 24 hours. Let's see, this would only help the short projects, what about those that take days to finish?

Also, only a small percentage of the people read the forums. Most people set and forget. So the percentage of people that may notice is probably less than you would imagine.

Again, PG is not about hurrying things, it's about accuracy. Getting the correct information done. I see no need to try and rush stuff. It would only make people want to OC their machines more to speed things up which is very bad for PG and will cause more errors.


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Message 79047 - Posted: 26 Aug 2014 | 13:27:32 UTC

My suggestion isn't about speeding up finding Primes or for the project as a whole from an administration standpoint, but to help satisfy the never ending complaints on the long waits for validations from wingmen, especially SOB and GFN-WR.

As far as letting people know about it, there should be an announcement in the news, which, appears on the front page and the BOINC GUI. And this brings me back to another suggestion I had in another thread and that is a BOLD link on the front page to an FAQ with important info for 'new to the project' crunchers where this and other important info (stuff that is scattered here and there throughout the message boards) is easily available in one place. Many other projects do have their own FAQs links on their front page. I know that some (many?) never go further than attaching and forget it (can't really help those, and those are part of the problem), but for those who do seek at least some more info along with recommended settings for beginners, this would be the best way to go I think. Having the early return bonus info in an easily accessible FAQ would encourage new people from over downloading WUs (especially long jobs) from the get go and possibly continuing to do so, leading to longer wait times and missed deadlines (which lead to even longer wait times). Education on how to make this project run as smooth as possible is just as important as finding primes and the integrity of the data.

I'm sure a lot of crunchers give up and leave because of the the long wait for validation/credit and this may (or may not) help. Reducing the wait will keep many more 'newbies' and make crunching Primegrid more enjoyable and satisfying for all. But we won't know without tests and/or trials along with a push on letting as many people know. Maybe a 90 day trial on PSP, SOB and GFN-WR and go from there. Just need to figure out a fair bonus implementation setup and amount.

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Message 79053 - Posted: 26 Aug 2014 | 16:26:13 UTC - in response to Message 79047.
Last modified: 26 Aug 2014 | 18:06:29 UTC

My suggestion isn't about speeding up finding Primes or for the project as a whole from an administration standpoint, but to help satisfy the never ending complaints on the long waits for validations from wingmen, especially SOB and GFN-WR.


All suggestions are welcomed.
Personally, I consider 'new to the project' a good idea. Anybody willing to write such a text and/or FAQ?

"Education on how to make this project run as smooth as possible" is usually done during challenges where it gets attention and is on regular basis.


Still wondering how a 10% bonus for early return would help with SoB, which already has 50% long job credit bonus and a 10% conjecture credit bonus.

Running SoB is not "get rich quick" subproject. Yes, this may discourage some participants - and they can still participate in shorter subprojects like PPS LLR or sieves.
Those returning valid large-task results will get decent credit with nice bonus, eventually.

For example - my last pending SoB got validated recently, after about ~5 months (not to complain, really).
http://www.primegrid.com/workunit.php?wuid=384280087
10% bonus wouldn't help "Timed out - no response" - detached host, crashed, BOINC uninstalled etc.
10% bonus wouldn't help "Error while downloading"
10% bonus wouldn't help "Error while computing"
10% bonus wouldn't help "Validate error"
10% bonus wouldn't help "Completed, marked as invalid".

Basically, all those kind of errors that don't make it to validation and get no credit - no matter how large potencial bonus...all those results needs to be recycled anyway.
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Message 79059 - Posted: 26 Aug 2014 | 17:57:45 UTC

I would rather not see credit inflation. As it stands there are already enough bonuses for the various long-run PG tasks. And from my own observations the credits for PG (for all sub-projects except factorial and primordial on PRPnet) are higher than the majority of projects as it is even without the bonuses.

I believe adding bonuses for fast turn around would only have the effect of "the rich getting richer." It would almost be the same as handing out free credit to those that post on the forums. Long sub-projects will always have a number of wingmen taking their time regardless of the bonuses.

At least it is not as bad as RNA which can take a year to be finally credited. Slow wingmen are just a way of life on Boinc. Unless PG can come up with a validation scheme that doesn't require a wingman similar to Collatz.

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Message 79061 - Posted: 26 Aug 2014 | 19:51:24 UTC - in response to Message 79053.

My suggestion isn't about speeding up finding Primes or for the project as a whole from an administration standpoint, but to help satisfy the never ending complaints on the long waits for validations from wingmen, especially SOB and GFN-WR.


All suggestions are welcomed.
Personally, I consider 'new to the project' a good idea. Anybody willing to write such a text and/or FAQ?

"Education on how to make this project run as smooth as possible" is usually done during challenges where it gets attention and is on regular basis.


Still wondering how a 10% bonus for early return would help with SoB, which already has 50% long job credit bonus and a 10% conjecture credit bonus.

Running SoB is not "get rich quick" subproject. Yes, this may discourage some participants - and they can still participate in shorter subprojects like PPS LLR or sieves.
Those returning valid large-task results will get decent credit with nice bonus, eventually.

For example - my last pending SoB got validated recently, after about ~5 months (not to complain, really).
http://www.primegrid.com/workunit.php?wuid=384280087
10% bonus wouldn't help "Timed out - no response" - detached host, crashed, BOINC uninstalled etc.
10% bonus wouldn't help "Error while downloading"
10% bonus wouldn't help "Error while computing"
10% bonus wouldn't help "Validate error"
10% bonus wouldn't help "Completed, marked as invalid".

Basically, all those kind of errors that don't make it to validation and get no credit - no matter how large potencial bonus...all those results needs to be recycled anyway.

The focus is NOT the extra credit itself but an incentive to minimize the cache of the new and naive or those who just need a little 'push' at crunching at a more time efficient manner, in hopes to reduce the frustration that some (not all) have at the long waits due to preventable delays in validation of long jobs. Many other suggestions on this have gotten nowhere so far. This is just one more of them.

The first "Timed out - no response" - detached host, crashed, BOINC uninstalled etc." is the only one that can't be helped from the projects end, other than a big billboard like banner at the top of an FAQ (or even directly on the front page) explaining the 'finish, abort but do not abandon' mentality that is pushed at challenges. That would be the best thing for this, but it will never eliminate it.
"Error while downloading" shouldn't matter because they're recycled quickly (like the 3 second error WUs). Correct me if I'm wrong Mike.
"Error while computing", "Validate error", "Completed, marked as invalid" are all unfortunate events but if the cruncher had little or no cache hoping for an early return bonus, that WU would be resent sooner to the next host reducing the turn around time compared to if that WU had started days later because of a larger cache resulting in a days later return.

There is no magical fix for reducing validate waits but I think this is a possible option to explore and test. How will anyone know unless tested. The only sure fire way currently is the fact that many want to be the first to return results, hoping to be the discoverer of a prime. Others are here to earn credit/badges and if they find a prime while at it great. Those are the ones (along with newcomers) that a faster return bonus would most influence.

As for the FAQ we could start a new thread for discussion on what should be included such as basic info directly in the FAQ, links to other more detailed info in the massage board and other relevant off site info. Much of the pre challenge info should be included. Primegrid is run by many contributors and an FAQ should be created by input by many and consolidated by a few. It my take a while but you have to start somewhere, sometime.
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Message 79279 - Posted: 6 Sep 2014 | 1:26:18 UTC
Last modified: 6 Sep 2014 | 1:39:39 UTC

How about merging "granted" & "pending" credit on a provisional basis until a 'wingman' is found & confirms the workunit result?

Obviously there are problems with granting any credit, then taking it away.
But it would eliminate a great deal of pending credit, & in the long run, might draw more people to long duration tasks, knowing they will be recognized for their work upon completion.

I'd have to ask a developer to know for sure, but I suspect most tasks that MAKE IT back to headquarters are in fact validated. So "provisional credits" would not often be revoked.

But is there a firm reason why pending credit can't be granted right away?
That seems to be a primary frustration to long tasks; not that the tasks take a long time, but that the wait is often not over, simply because a long task is completed

--Project Scientist Honza's idea of pairing faster & more reliable crunchers to validate each other's results is a great solution. One drawback being that new crunchers have to rely on another unreliable wingman to validate their workunits.

How about that idea + the following rules:
0. Implement workunits exactly as current, but,
1. when a user completes a task waiting for validation if their wingman does not complete or abort that task, or breaches the deadline, this workunit gets resent to a user who has reliably & recently returned a result in that subproject.
2. When a user aborts or abandons a task for any reason, that user will no longer be paired with someone who has returned work in that subproject within its respective deadline, for the duration of that deadline after the unit is resent.
For example, anyone that aborts or abandons a PSP task will be unable to pair for 21 days, with anyone who has successfully returned a workunit in the last 21 days
3. In the event a user who has aborted or abandoned a task goes on to complete a new task & their wingman aborts or abandons, it may be resent to a user who has reliably returned recent results, to the benefit of both users

This would allow everyone to have a fairer chance at having workunits validated without unfairly excluding new users or people that may have aborted a task.

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Message 79280 - Posted: 6 Sep 2014 | 1:55:31 UTC - in response to Message 79279.

<snip...>

How about that idea + the following rules:
0. Implement workunits exactly as current, but,
1. when a user completes a task waiting for validation if their wingman does not complete or abort that task, or breaches the deadline, this workunit gets resent to a user who has reliably & recently returned a result in that subproject.
2. When a user aborts or abandons a task for any reason, that user will no longer be paired with someone who has returned work in that subproject within its respective deadline, for the duration of that deadline after the unit is resent.
For example, anyone that aborts or abandons a PSP task will be unable to pair for 21 days, with anyone who has successfully returned a workunit in the last 21 days
3. In the event a user who has aborted or abandoned a task goes on to complete a new task & their wingman aborts or abandons, it may be resent to a user who has reliably returned recent results, to the benefit of both users

This would allow everyone to have a fairer chance at having workunits validated without unfairly excluding new users or people that may have aborted a task.

Users might abort tasks for any number of reasons - new hardware teething problems, away on vacation, changing subprojects to an upcoming PrimeGrid Challenge, etc. Aborting a task puts the work unit back into the pool for others to get to work on it. It's not the same as holding a large cache of tasks and then allowing them to miss the deadline. It's always preferable to abort tasks (sooner, rather than later, if possible) rather than allowing them to 'time out'.

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Message 79285 - Posted: 6 Sep 2014 | 3:10:04 UTC - in response to Message 79280.

Users might abort tasks for any number of reasons - new hardware teething problems, away on vacation, changing subprojects to an upcoming PrimeGrid Challenge, etc. Aborting a task puts the work unit back into the pool for others to get to work on it. It's not the same as holding a large cache of tasks and then allowing them to miss the deadline. It's always preferable to abort tasks (sooner, rather than later, if possible) rather than allowing them to 'time out'.


Thats true, so perhaps if a person aborts a task, but has a history of completing others, an exemption can be made. The idea being no one is permanently given "bad" wingmen as punishment, it simply doesn't immediately pair them with someone with a recent history of completion, so that person can get credit faster.

After the first new workunit is completed & returned they could resume normal pairing, and as I stated, even that "penalty" workunit would have priority pairing if its wingman did not complete.
A system like that would ensure workunits go where they are most likely to be credited.

It would not be perfect, like nearly any suggestion. But it would be fair & it would help decrease the likelihood of a task being in limbo for a ridiculous amount of time.

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Message 79289 - Posted: 6 Sep 2014 | 10:21:55 UTC - in response to Message 79279.


2. When a user aborts or abandons a task for any reason, that user will no longer be paired with someone who has returned work in that subproject within its respective deadline, for the duration of that deadline after the unit is resent.
For example, anyone that aborts or abandons a PSP task will be unable to pair for 21 days, with anyone who has successfully returned a workunit in the last 21 days
3. In the event a user who has aborted or abandoned a task goes on to complete a new task & their wingman aborts or abandons, it may be resent to a user who has reliably returned recent results, to the benefit of both users

This would allow everyone to have a fairer chance at having workunits validated without unfairly excluding new users or people that may have aborted a task.


If a user aborts a unit and then can't get their new units validated and get credits for them, as in your example could happen, that user might just to heck with PG and be outa here, and that would not be a good thing.

I have personally aborted units just recently, I was out of town and ran PG due its short time frame units and suspended my much longer time frame usual units. When my out of town time was over I aborted my remaining PG units and went back to my long time frame units again. Being out of town for me means not being able to leave my pc running 24/7 like I do when at home, so shorter units are better. When a long unit can take as much as 20 hours and I can't leave the pc even ON for 24 hours in a weekend, it means essentially nothing gets done. Running PG's short units lets me feel like I am contributing, even though I am not running my pc as much.

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Message 79294 - Posted: 6 Sep 2014 | 18:44:39 UTC - in response to Message 79289.

If a user aborts a unit and then can't get their new units validated and get credits for them, as in your example could happen, that user might just to heck with PG and be outa here, and that would not be a good thing.

I have personally aborted units just recently, I was out of town and ran PG due its short time frame units and suspended my much longer time frame usual units. When my out of town time was over I aborted my remaining PG units and went back to my long time frame units again. Being out of town for me means not being able to leave my pc running 24/7 like I do when at home, so shorter units are better. When a long unit can take as much as 20 hours and I can't leave the pc even ON for 24 hours in a weekend, it means essentially nothing gets done. Running PG's short units lets me feel like I am contributing, even though I am not running my pc as much.


My suggestion is primary for long subprojects such as PSP & SoB. With the given set of rules, yes you would not immediately paired with someone with "active results" until your next complete workunit. But you have to look at it both ways.

Whomever got sent the same workunit as you will in the current system, be unable to get their tasks validated, & they roll the dice on who it gets sent to next.

The rules are kind of like the 3 laws lol.
If you look higher up the list, #1 reads:
"1. when a user completes a task waiting for validation if their wingman does not complete or abort that task, or breaches the deadline, this workunit gets resent to a user who has reliably & recently returned a result in that subproject."

In other words, when you have a completed workunit uploaded, IF the person receiving your workunit does not complete it for any reason, it would be resent to someone most likely to validate it quickly, as it is already finished on your end.
This is regardless of whether you previously aborted workunits or not

This makes it much more likely it will be validated by the 3rd try, as opposed to the current system, which randomly sends it to another person & may force you to wait longer than you otherwise would

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Message 79295 - Posted: 7 Sep 2014 | 0:01:35 UTC

Perhaps new workunits, if they are set to have 2 people, are instead set to three: 2 proven reliable, and one new or unreliable host... If the 2 reliable finish it and return it, they both get credit, but then if the unreliable host returns it, they also get credit. However, if they do not, there is no waiting for the reliable hosts.. And still gives the unreliable / new hosts a chance to validate and earn 'reliable' status.
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Message 79306 - Posted: 7 Sep 2014 | 11:42:41 UTC - in response to Message 79294.

If a user aborts a unit and then can't get their new units validated and get credits for them, as in your example could happen, that user might just to heck with PG and be outa here, and that would not be a good thing.

I have personally aborted units just recently, I was out of town and ran PG due its short time frame units and suspended my much longer time frame usual units. When my out of town time was over I aborted my remaining PG units and went back to my long time frame units again. Being out of town for me means not being able to leave my pc running 24/7 like I do when at home, so shorter units are better. When a long unit can take as much as 20 hours and I can't leave the pc even ON for 24 hours in a weekend, it means essentially nothing gets done. Running PG's short units lets me feel like I am contributing, even though I am not running my pc as much.


My suggestion is primary for long subprojects such as PSP & SoB. With the given set of rules, yes you would not immediately paired with someone with "active results" until your next complete workunit. But you have to look at it both ways.

Whomever got sent the same workunit as you will in the current system, be unable to get their tasks validated, & they roll the dice on who it gets sent to next.

The rules are kind of like the 3 laws lol.
If you look higher up the list, #1 reads:
"1. when a user completes a task waiting for validation if their wingman does not complete or abort that task, or breaches the deadline, this workunit gets resent to a user who has reliably & recently returned a result in that subproject."

In other words, when you have a completed workunit uploaded, IF the person receiving your workunit does not complete it for any reason, it would be resent to someone most likely to validate it quickly, as it is already finished on your end.
This is regardless of whether you previously aborted workunits or not

This makes it much more likely it will be validated by the 3rd try, as opposed to the current system, which randomly sends it to another person & may force you to wait longer than you otherwise would


Seti tried doing that a LONG time ago, doing all resends only to hosts that were regularly returning units within 24 hours, but they never got it working right.

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Message 79324 - Posted: 7 Sep 2014 | 19:09:52 UTC - in response to Message 79306.

Seti tried doing that a LONG time ago, doing all resends only to hosts that were regularly returning units within 24 hours, but they never got it working right.

Can you expand on this?
If there is already some experience, we don't need to do the same mistakes again. Or we can learn from it. Or we can see that this is not the way forward at all.

I always liked the concept of per-host turn-around time, which is a single measurement of reliability that takes into account speed as well.
Fast&realible host running exclusively PG 24/7 paired with also reliable but very slow host (huge cache, running a lot of projects, not 24/7, doing SoB close to it's deadline) is not a good pair in this perspective.
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Message 79328 - Posted: 7 Sep 2014 | 19:48:53 UTC - in response to Message 79324.

If there is already some experience, we don't need to do the same mistakes again.


I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression. Most of these ideas require fundamental changes to the BOINC scheduler, which is something I won't do unless it's absolutely, positively and unambiguously necessary to keep PrimeGrid running. It's a very complex piece of code, and once we start changing it, we own it forever. Both the initial changes as well as the ongoing maintenance of the scheduler will incur significant costs in terms of effort and risk.

While it's useful to discuss possible improvements, please understand that it is unlikely that these suggestions will ever be anything more than hypothetical.
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Message 79333 - Posted: 7 Sep 2014 | 20:47:37 UTC - in response to Message 79328.

I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression. Most of these ideas require fundamental changes to the BOINC scheduler, which is something I won't do unless it's absolutely, positively and unambiguously necessary to keep PrimeGrid running. It's a very complex piece of code, and once we start changing it, we own it forever. Both the initial changes as well as the ongoing maintenance of the scheduler will incur significant costs in terms of effort and risk.

While it's useful to discuss possible improvements, please understand that it is unlikely that these suggestions will ever be anything more than hypothetical.

The current system works fine. Eventually someone will finish the job and credit will be issued. In the meantime, crunching continues unabated so no time is really lost. All that we need is some patience and a working computer.

I would rather see time and effort spent on new and improved apps, such as the recently released Genefer 3.2.3 OpenCL.

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Message 79346 - Posted: 7 Sep 2014 | 23:10:57 UTC - in response to Message 79328.

Most of these ideas require fundamental changes to the BOINC scheduler, which is something I won't do unless it's absolutely, positively and unambiguously necessary to keep PrimeGrid running. It's a very complex piece of code, and once we start changing it, we own it forever. Both the initial changes as well as the ongoing maintenance of the scheduler will incur significant costs in terms of effort and risk.


I suppose it all depends on the needs of the (sub)project & if getting tasks completed continues to be a problem. Any change to the number of workunits sent at one time per task (currently 2) would increase the speed of a given task being validated but reduce the total number validated over time.

At PrimeGrid, we're concerned with the overall throughput (i.e., average number of tasks per day completed) rather than how fast each task is returned. Unlike GPUGrid, from a science perspective, it doesn't matter if some tasks take a long time to finish. "Eventually" is good enough.


The current system does indeed work well with shorter subprojects with a large pool of users & less likely to incur delays. But if subprojects like SoB or to a lesser extent, PSP, have problems due exclusively to their longer run durations and/or deadlines other BOINC projects & PG subprojects don't face, maybe change is warranted on just those subprojects.

Again it all depends on how urgently those results are needed by the project, & how change might improve the system as a whole.
With that said, the whole purpose of providing things like long task bonuses was to incentivize people to run those projects, when most people tend to prefer receiving credit more quickly.

Although altering the way task assignment/scheduling works is not a "bonus" it could help address the problems that credit bonuses were originally meant to.

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Message 79353 - Posted: 8 Sep 2014 | 11:57:57 UTC - in response to Message 79324.

Seti tried doing that a LONG time ago, doing all resends only to hosts that were regularly returning units within 24 hours, but they never got it working right.

Can you expand on this?
If there is already some experience, we don't need to do the same mistakes again. Or we can learn from it. Or we can see that this is not the way forward at all.

I always liked the concept of per-host turn-around time, which is a single measurement of reliability that takes into account speed as well.
Fast&realible host running exclusively PG 24/7 paired with also reliable but very slow host (huge cache, running a lot of projects, not 24/7, doing SoB close to it's deadline) is not a good pair in this perspective.


It WOULD require a scheduler change and Seti itself never got it to work right, and they are STILL the programmers for the Boinc software. But essentially anytime a unit got aborted or a deadline was missed they tried setting it up so the workunit would ONLY get resent to a pc that was consistently returning units in under 24 hours. The idea being the unit would get finished quickly and the workunits would move thru the units more quickly, making everyone, including the Server, happy. It never worked out because the programming could never be tweaked correctly to make it work as planned. I was NOT a part of that, or any other programming, so do not have first hand knowledge, just what was said at the time on the message boards, both internal and external. After a few months of work they gave up saying it was too difficult to implement.

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