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Message boards : Project Staging Area : Is it technically possible to move factorial and primorial searches to BOINC?

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Message 133564 - Posted: 6 Oct 2019 | 11:30:29 UTC

In a 2014 thread BOINC vs PRPNet, it was stated:

Primorial and Factorial use PFGW which isn't (currently) supported on BOINC, although we could add the support if we wanted to.


So my question is, is this still the case today?

Would it be straightforward to add support for PFGW in BOINC?

It is my impression that results/residues from factorial and primorial tests on PRPNet are kept and shall be used for doublechecking when/if these subprojects move to BOINC.

I think the factorial and primorial searches would become much more popular if they were moved to BOINC.

/JeppeSN

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Message 133565 - Posted: 6 Oct 2019 | 11:57:40 UTC - in response to Message 133564.
Last modified: 6 Oct 2019 | 13:55:24 UTC

In a 2014 thread BOINC vs PRPNet, it was stated:

Primorial and Factorial use PFGW which isn't (currently) supported on BOINC, although we could add the support if we wanted to.


So my question is, is this still the case today?

Would it be straightforward to add support for PFGW in BOINC?

It is my impression that results/residues from factorial and primorial tests on PRPNet are kept and shall be used for doublechecking when/if these subprojects move to BOINC.

I think the factorial and primorial searches would become much more popular if they were moved to BOINC.

/JeppeSN


Jim may correct me if I'm remembering this incorrectly, but there's several non-trivial steps that need to be done.

1) PFGW on BOINC.

I'm sure we'll find some unexpected roadblocks getting that to work, but I'm also confident we'd eventually get it working.

But that success would lead to the second problem:

2) On BOINC, we'd use up the existing sieve files pretty quickly.

We'd have to open up sieving again and sieve to much higher n's this time.

And that takes us to the third problem: (This is where my memory is not as clear.)

3) At least one of the sieves can't go much higher.

So, yes, it's doable. But one of the two projects will quickly come to a close on BOINC not too long after it starts.

EDIT: I neglected to answer your question about double checking. Yes, we have residues, and I suspect we'd probably double-check all the PRPNet work.
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Message 133566 - Posted: 6 Oct 2019 | 13:39:05 UTC
Last modified: 6 Oct 2019 | 13:39:38 UTC

Doublechecks don't need BOINC, although BOINC automates the process.
Sieving further is certainly doable.
A better question is why to port 'orial's to BOINC?
Would do more work on BOINC, but at the cost of existing sub-projects.

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Message 133567 - Posted: 6 Oct 2019 | 13:56:54 UTC - in response to Message 133566.

A better question is why to port 'orial's to BOINC?
Would do more work on BOINC, but at the cost of existing sub-projects.


Do you think PrimeGrid should discourage -orial searches compared to Proth or GFN searces, for example?

I think a notion like a factorial prime is something many people have seen in school, so it is somewhat famous, so I do not see a reason why we would deliberately keep them on a less popular platform (PRPNet) to prevent competition between them and other subprojects?

It is fair enough to keep them on PRPNet for technical and practical reasons, and because it requires human work to move them, but I do not think it is a good argument that people would prefer them over other subprojects.

/JeppeSN

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Message 133568 - Posted: 6 Oct 2019 | 14:20:07 UTC
Last modified: 6 Oct 2019 | 14:33:42 UTC

When I look at the Factorial Top Twenty I note that the two largest factorial primes were found outside PrimeGrid. So we are missing finds because people outside PrimeGrid come first. Of course these people may leave "holes", and last time PrimeGrid found a factorial prime it was not the largest known one. If we find one at the current leading edge, it will be the largest one known. But who knows if the region we search now has already been searched by someone else?

I think it is realistic to come to a situation where all new factorial primes are discovered by "us". (Of course we cannot prevent people from searching just ahead of our leading edge, but if we have muscles enough, we will win.)

Addition: Interestingly, on the PRPNet server we can see that user suse found the prime 150209!+1 on 2013-Oct-16. This one had been sent in to Caldwell by René Dohmen on 2011-Oct-31.

/JeppeSN

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Message 133876 - Posted: 14 Oct 2019 | 18:29:58 UTC - in response to Message 133564.

I think the factorial and primorial searches would become much more popular if they were moved to BOINC.

It would - badge hunters would do the job.
And it would push our leading edge *much* higher beyond current 262000!+1

I would also like to see FPS and PRS on BOINC - because of double-checking.

On the other hand, PRPNet is suitable for some instances - no need to install anything, slower computers can play nicely there (no hurry to be first).

Question may be - is it worth the effort? Is it a priority?

On a side note - I remember that calculating credit and/or candidate digits may not be easy.

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Message 133881 - Posted: 14 Oct 2019 | 20:41:47 UTC - in response to Message 133565.

In a 2014 thread BOINC vs PRPNet, it was stated:

Primorial and Factorial use PFGW which isn't (currently) supported on BOINC, although we could add the support if we wanted to.


So my question is, is this still the case today?

Would it be straightforward to add support for PFGW in BOINC?

It is my impression that results/residues from factorial and primorial tests on PRPNet are kept and shall be used for doublechecking when/if these subprojects move to BOINC.

I think the factorial and primorial searches would become much more popular if they were moved to BOINC.

/JeppeSN


Jim may correct me if I'm remembering this incorrectly, but there's several non-trivial steps that need to be done.

1) PFGW on BOINC.

I'm sure we'll find some unexpected roadblocks getting that to work, but I'm also confident we'd eventually get it working.

But that success would lead to the second problem:

2) On BOINC, we'd use up the existing sieve files pretty quickly.

We'd have to open up sieving again and sieve to much higher n's this time.

And that takes us to the third problem: (This is where my memory is not as clear.)

3) At least one of the sieves can't go much higher.

So, yes, it's doable. But one of the two projects will quickly come to a close on BOINC not too long after it starts.

EDIT: I neglected to answer your question about double checking. Yes, we have residues, and I suspect we'd probably double-check all the PRPNet work.


Question #1, how would pfgw need to change to support BOINC?

Question #2, how far has the sieving gone? mfsieve (part of the mtsieve framework), which replaced fpsieve/fsieve/fsievecl, can sieve up to 2^62.

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Message 133886 - Posted: 14 Oct 2019 | 22:00:47 UTC - in response to Message 133881.

In a 2014 thread BOINC vs PRPNet, it was stated:

Primorial and Factorial use PFGW which isn't (currently) supported on BOINC, although we could add the support if we wanted to.


So my question is, is this still the case today?

Would it be straightforward to add support for PFGW in BOINC?

It is my impression that results/residues from factorial and primorial tests on PRPNet are kept and shall be used for doublechecking when/if these subprojects move to BOINC.

I think the factorial and primorial searches would become much more popular if they were moved to BOINC.

/JeppeSN


Jim may correct me if I'm remembering this incorrectly, but there's several non-trivial steps that need to be done.

1) PFGW on BOINC.

I'm sure we'll find some unexpected roadblocks getting that to work, but I'm also confident we'd eventually get it working.

But that success would lead to the second problem:

2) On BOINC, we'd use up the existing sieve files pretty quickly.

We'd have to open up sieving again and sieve to much higher n's this time.

And that takes us to the third problem: (This is where my memory is not as clear.)

3) At least one of the sieves can't go much higher.

So, yes, it's doable. But one of the two projects will quickly come to a close on BOINC not too long after it starts.

EDIT: I neglected to answer your question about double checking. Yes, we have residues, and I suspect we'd probably double-check all the PRPNet work.


Question #1, how would pfgw need to change to support BOINC?

Question #2, how far has the sieving gone? mfsieve (part of the mtsieve framework), which replaced fpsieve/fsieve/fsievecl, can sieve up to 2^62.


I can't answer #2.

As for #1, I'm not sure. The idea was to change the wrapper, not PFGW. If we get to the point where we're thinking about this seriously, we'll come up with a to-do list. The PFGW part wasn't what we were worried about. Our big concern was rapidly running out of work.
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Message 133933 - Posted: 15 Oct 2019 | 20:51:46 UTC - in response to Message 133886.

I can't answer #2.


I would be very surprised if it reached the 2^62 limit. Factorial and primorial sieves are iterative, which means that one must know the result of the previous term before testing the next term. Because of this iterative nature, it takes far longer to sieve a range than non-iterative sieves like ppsieve and srsieve.

It is possible that the older version of fsieve/fsievecl/fpsieve had a limit of 2^52. mfsieve has a limit of 2^62.

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Message 133948 - Posted: 16 Oct 2019 | 11:52:35 UTC - in response to Message 133933.

I can't answer #2.


I would be very surprised if it reached the 2^62 limit. Factorial and primorial sieves are iterative, which means that one must know the result of the previous term before testing the next term. Because of this iterative nature, it takes far longer to sieve a range than non-iterative sieves like ppsieve and srsieve.

It is possible that the older version of fsieve/fsievecl/fpsieve had a limit of 2^52. mfsieve has a limit of 2^62.


One more thing, the CPU threads of mfsieve will use AVX logic for p < 2^52, so it is much faster than fsieve and fpsieve for those p.

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Message 141822 - Posted: 19 Jul 2020 | 5:58:58 UTC - in response to Message 133567.

but I do not think it is a good argument that people would prefer them over other subprojects.
For what it's worth, I think too many subprojects is not good. Many subprojects like SoB, Cul, WOO (actually, most of them) are slow enough as it is and adding more subprojects will slow down progress on each individual subproject even more.

In the end, the question is, is it more worthwile to have pushed the leading edge on 12 different types of primes or to have found 1 or 2 new largest primes (of their type).

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Message 141839 - Posted: 19 Jul 2020 | 14:04:56 UTC - in response to Message 141822.
Last modified: 19 Jul 2020 | 14:05:36 UTC

but I do not think it is a good argument that people would prefer them over other subprojects.
For what it's worth, I think too many subprojects is not good. Many subprojects like SoB, Cul, WOO (actually, most of them) are slow enough as it is and adding more subprojects will slow down progress on each individual subproject even more.

In the end, the question is, is it more worthwile to have pushed the leading edge on 12 different types of primes or to have found 1 or 2 new largest primes (of their type).


stream posted
PrpNet is a testing area for projects which does have (yet) significant attention or of lesser mathematical importance. It's not expected to have high participation for them. (btw a fact that you're not familiar with console and command line does not mean that everybody here is). Eventually, these projects may receive more attention, become Boinc-ready and will be adopted by PrimeGrid. It happened with SR5. Or they may be shut down, like we did with wwww project due to software problems.


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Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,011,570)Cullen LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,009,374)ESP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,009,221)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,012,217)PPS LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (11,055,307)PSP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,044,081)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,993,121)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,959,731)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,242,977)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,911,706)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,963,318)321 Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,004,228)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,047,667)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,866,490)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,043,271)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,015,177)AP 26/27 Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,045,194)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (53,545,357)PSA Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (200,301,443)
Message 141848 - Posted: 19 Jul 2020 | 22:30:38 UTC

Regarding PFGW support:

It's not difficult to support it. Our new wrapper is highly modular and can be expanded to support any new program in just a few hours of coding.

But... PFGW have a problem with checkpoints. To be exact, it checkpoints only PRP tests. So all primorial/factorial tests must be run in PRP mode, and, if a PRP is reported, another test must be run on server to confirm that PRP is really a prime. It's not a problem again, we do this for GFN. But...

If we're going to run PRP tests anyway, is it possible to add such kind of PRP test to LLR2? Can this test use LLR2 features such Gerbicz check and fast verification? I don't know answers to these questions. But if it can be done, this approach will be much more efficient then using PFGW.

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Found 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (529,293)Cullen LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (98,851)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (139,922)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (35,236)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,145,276)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (212,242)SoB LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (237,390)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (145,419)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (104,534)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (342,501)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (109,455)321 Sieve Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (175,037)AP 26/27 Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (12,129)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,614,290)
Message 141849 - Posted: 19 Jul 2020 | 23:53:04 UTC

Since factorial and primorial primes are going to be rare, it will not place any load on the server to do the "full" check serverside, and use PRP tests in the clients.

There is a question about double ckecking the residues that have been done on PRPNet up till now. If some of those old tests are done in PRP mode(s), and some in deterministic mode(s), are the residues compatible? Otherwise we would have to switch to a particular mode during the double ckeck of old/ancient factorial and primorial work units.

But then there is the sieving need mentioned (by Mike and others) earlier in this thread.

/JeppeSN

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Credit: 229,128,982
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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,822,730)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,005,249)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,009,577)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,145,754)PPS LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,528,453)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,197,957)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (34,291,181)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,276,330)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,195,123)321 Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,118,303)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (74,739,811)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 141852 - Posted: 20 Jul 2020 | 5:18:49 UTC

It's... more complicated. Jim and l seriously considered this not too long ago.

This is a case where we could end up with "too much of a good thing."

If we move Primorial and Factorial to BOINC, then we'll be running many, many more tests of Primorial and Factorial. That's a good thing, right?

It is, except that we'll exhaust the existing Primorial and Factorial sieve files very quickly.

Ok, so we just do more sieving.

Except that there's built in limits as to how high the sieve programs can sieve. We will hit those limits fairly quickly.

Unless we build a sieve program that can sieve much higher, if we move Factorial and Primorial to BOINC, they will be very short lived projects. Short enough that it's not worth doing.

Note that every time we've moved something from PRPNet to BOINC, the first step is always to do more sieving. This is no different. What's different this time is that it's not obvious how we can do enough sieving.
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Message boards : Project Staging Area : Is it technically possible to move factorial and primorial searches to BOINC?

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