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Message boards : General discussion : The "marketplace"

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Joined: 16 Feb 10
Posts: 841
ID: 55391
Credit: 786,846,878
RAC: 443,879
Discovered 2 mega primesFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,477,467)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (776,297)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,433,680)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,093,491)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (27,387,734)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,587,988)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (34,539,431)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,110,877)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,486,285)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,070,795)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,693,614)321 Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,256,050)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,571,178)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,009,610)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (388,039,802)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,165,888)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,071,454)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,616,128)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (53,771,465)WW Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (932,000)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (102,762,384)
Message 105373 - Posted: 26 Feb 2017 | 2:38:38 UTC

A = 50888045 credit needed to next badge
B = 25831 credit pending
C = A - B = 5062214 additional credits needed
D = 600.71 credits per task
E = C / D = 8428 tasks needing crunching to next badge
F = 7850 seconds to crunch a task on computer x
G = 11653 seconds to crunch a task on computer y
H = F / G ~= 0.67 task crunched on computer y in the time to finish a task on computer x
J 4 threads on computer x
K 12 threads on computer y
L = J + H * K = 12 tasks crunched per time F
M = E / L * F / (3600 * 720) =~ 2.3 months of crunching to next badge

I'll probably fail to achieve the next badge.

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Joined: 16 Feb 10
Posts: 841
ID: 55391
Credit: 786,846,878
RAC: 443,879
Discovered 2 mega primesFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,477,467)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (776,297)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,433,680)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,093,491)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (27,387,734)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,587,988)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (34,539,431)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,110,877)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,486,285)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,070,795)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,693,614)321 Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,256,050)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,571,178)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,009,610)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (388,039,802)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,165,888)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,071,454)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,616,128)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (53,771,465)WW Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (932,000)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (102,762,384)
Message 105376 - Posted: 26 Feb 2017 | 5:39:39 UTC

Trade Wanted: a pretty sapphire badge for TRP SV, instead of this ugly jade badge.

Asking: supplementary CPU crunching for up to 4,000,000 credits within the next few weeks.

Offering: AFTER my sapphire badge is attained or TRP SV ends (whichever is first), about the same number of CPU credits + the use of the GPU for the duration of CPU crunching (a good deal, expecially if you put my CPU on slower-computing tasks!). I'm willing to wrangle weak authenticator keys to your benefit during upcoming challenges if my badge goal is attained. I have a i7-5820K @ 3.3 GHz + GTX 760 o/c with fan running at 100% to keep those GPU errors away.

We need to exchange our weak account keys from the "your account" page and put it into the <authenticator> tag in
/var/lib/boinc/account_www.primegrid.com.xml (for Linux).

In case of multiple takers, credit repayment will occur in descending order of "total credit" from your computers' contribution to my goal until all CPU credits are repaid.

Any takers?

I've ditched TdP a few days early to work on TRP SV, so I can't help in your quest for a jersey - unless you have massive CPU power to help me reach my goal much earlier, then I'll redirect this CPU + GPU to TdP for your benefit as a down payment. (I had the red jersey in hand until that GFN-18 came through - so my GPU is now working on GFN-18 to try to recoup the jersey!)

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Posts: 263
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Credit: 6,337,969,433
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Discovered 8 mega primesFound 12 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 6 primes in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 7 primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 mega primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes Mountain StageFound 16 primes in the 2021 Tour de PrimesFound 2 mega primes in the 2021 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes Mountain Stage321 LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,740,570)Cullen LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (53,564,865)ESP LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (41,654,113)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (30,835,287)PPS LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (212,534,564)PSP LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (139,883,108)SoB LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (79,824,750)SR5 LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (63,842,551)SGS LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (103,734,174)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (76,266)TRP LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (71,577,312)Woodall LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (51,747,294)321 Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (205,512,337)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (35,459,921)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (103,015,099)PPS Sieve Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (3,518,465,583)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (11,101,054)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (25,930,215)AP 26/27 Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (270,755,818)GFN Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (609,219,168)WW Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (570,100,000)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (102,293,265)
Message 105377 - Posted: 26 Feb 2017 | 6:10:08 UTC
Last modified: 26 Feb 2017 | 6:11:33 UTC

Plus it takes some time depending on the nature of the tasks you are crunching now for the battle fleet to turn around. So in my case I have several machines working on tasks that take a few days to finish; this means that to start on the Sieve tasks there is a delay. In addition I would guess some more folk might crunch Sieve tasks to ensure they get their final badge upgraded. I hope this doesn't bring forward the closing of the sub-project earlier than Michael's estimated 2 months.

Its a shame that this may impact on the month long Tour de Primes.
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Joined: 16 Feb 10
Posts: 841
ID: 55391
Credit: 786,846,878
RAC: 443,879
Discovered 2 mega primesFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,477,467)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (776,297)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,433,680)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,093,491)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (27,387,734)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,587,988)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (34,539,431)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,110,877)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,486,285)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,070,795)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,693,614)321 Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,256,050)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,571,178)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,009,610)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (388,039,802)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,165,888)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,071,454)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,616,128)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (53,771,465)WW Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (932,000)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (102,762,384)
Message 105378 - Posted: 26 Feb 2017 | 6:38:10 UTC - in response to Message 105377.
Last modified: 26 Feb 2017 | 7:08:27 UTC

I agree on the fleet turnaround aspect - I have 2 SoBs currently on the go for several more days that I won't terminate for the sieve. They've slowed down now because I've ramped up all the threads for the sieve. As far as my offer goes, the fact that there are 2 SoBs in there might be extra enticement to someone who wants to do the trade before they complete.

This makes me think of the evolution of PrimeGrid credit as computing currency for badges.

As it stands, there's a leap of faith to accept a promise of exchange of future credits of unspecified type as I've done in my previous message, because there is a degree of uncertainty that the promise of future computation can be fulfilled.

What is needed is the ability to move previously earned credits between participants for an agreed-upon or market-based "exchange rate". So for example, PPS SV credits which are produced at a phenomenal rate by just about anyone with a GPU could be traded for CPU credits generated by another participant. The catch is that credits should not be convertible from one subproject to another, only tradeable, leading to conservation of total credit in each subproject.

The credit value earned in each subproject is already somewhat balanced according to their difficulty to produce, but there is additional scarcity value which is not exactly reflected in the nominal value of credit. The bonus credit currently afforded the longer running projects and conjectures is an attempt to capture that scarcity value and the value of proving theoretical results.

We all know that badges have no intrinsic value - they exist only to encourange computation on a range of subprojects. The real goal lies in finding the large primes. But allowing people to trade already-earned credit could add another interesting and unique dimension to PrimeGrid.

EDIT: And then there are those Black Swan events like what's currently happening with the TRP SV subproject. I could see the market for these credits going wild with these announcements and speculation.

EDIT EDIT: There is also value in allowing people to trade their "surplus credit" that they won't be using to reach the next badge.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: Another subtext here is that there is implicitly a market for future credit, in that people with larger credit balances may be willing to trade away some past credit in expectation that they will earn it back. Trading only in earned credits avoids the opportunity to break a promise of future credit delivery, as they will only be hurting their own credit balances if they don't perform the future computations.

Anthony Ayiomamitis
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Joined: 19 Mar 15
Posts: 2878
ID: 386066
Credit: 943,252,532
RAC: 328,394
Found 2 primes in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,048,709)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,026,008)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,098,225)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,127,156)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,015,895)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,117,327)SoB LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,444,765)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,093,822)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,012,543)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,050,008)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,062,520)321 Sieve (suspended) Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (102,500,323)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (100,500,349)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (243,349,119)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (14,516,062)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,329,228)AP 26/27 Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (60,167,926)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (104,032,849)WW Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (100,228,000)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (116,531,700)
Message 105379 - Posted: 26 Feb 2017 | 7:24:32 UTC - in response to Message 105376.
Last modified: 26 Feb 2017 | 7:25:34 UTC

Trade Wanted: a pretty sapphire badge for TRP SV, instead of this ugly jade badge.

I had a similar agony with ESP Sieve and where I fell short of a Sapphire badge by about 26 days from what I recall. Had the proposed challenge for Sept/2016 with ESP Sieve gone ahead as originally planned, the Sapphire badge would have been in the bag by at least a week before the start of the challenge (I realize that challenge projects are not cast in stone).

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Credit: 1,550,106,239
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Found 2 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,000,095)Cullen LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,008,839)ESP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,006,418)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,006,485)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,997,569)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,888,926)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,306,239)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,560,453)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,048,045)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,001,707)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,007,879)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,003,334)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (268,250)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,000,502)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (307,000,341)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,000,133)TRP Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,000,970)AP 26/27 Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (200,128,500)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (170,400,013)WW Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (543,536,000)PSA Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (200,000,001)
Message 105381 - Posted: 26 Feb 2017 | 8:31:17 UTC

I'm having a mini push & will have Jadey in the bag (so to speak) in just a week or so.

I don't agree on any 'cost'-based model. That's how wars start & isn't what PG is about. I say leave things as they are.

Anthony Ayiomamitis
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Joined: 19 Mar 15
Posts: 2878
ID: 386066
Credit: 943,252,532
RAC: 328,394
Found 2 primes in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,048,709)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,026,008)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,098,225)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,127,156)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,015,895)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,117,327)SoB LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,444,765)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,093,822)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,012,543)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,050,008)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,062,520)321 Sieve (suspended) Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (102,500,323)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (100,500,349)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (243,349,119)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (14,516,062)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,329,228)AP 26/27 Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (60,167,926)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (104,032,849)WW Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (100,228,000)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (116,531,700)
Message 105384 - Posted: 26 Feb 2017 | 9:58:05 UTC - in response to Message 105381.

Dave, I agree with you.

I am eager for TdP to be over and done with so that I can get going after AP27 and before we possibly have a similar suspension at some point in the immediate future (I will need about 30 days for Sapphire). Where there is smoke, assume there is fire!

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Credit: 786,846,878
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Discovered 2 mega primesFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,477,467)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (776,297)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,433,680)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,093,491)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (27,387,734)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,587,988)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (34,539,431)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,110,877)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,486,285)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,070,795)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,693,614)321 Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,256,050)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,571,178)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,009,610)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (388,039,802)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,165,888)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,071,454)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,616,128)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (53,771,465)WW Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (932,000)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (102,762,384)
Message 105387 - Posted: 26 Feb 2017 | 12:19:30 UTC - in response to Message 105381.

I don't agree on any 'cost'-based model. That's how wars start & isn't what PG is about. I say leave things as they are.


Well now we have a really interesting discussion happening, worthy of a debate that is getting seriously off-topic.

You are doubtlessly saying that PrimeGrid is about fun and excitement and the advancement of science, and I agree wholeheartedly with you. But there's more to it than that.

By leaving economics out of the picture, we quietly ignore the fact that real people are volunteering real resources that cost real money and time. I think the concern is that the slightest offence could trigger anyone into becoming hostile or leaving PrimeGrid.

So maybe someone having a supercomputer on hand, or the cash to rent a cloud, can be a source of envy or resentment to people who have contributed as much as they could toward attaining a token reward or recognition, only to have the rug pulled out from under them before they get it, because of a discovery (which is actually good news) or a major contribution to a subproject like TRP SV. Honestly, I think distributed computing communities like PrimeGrid are not for people who feel that way about voluntary contributions.

PrimeGrid is not promising anything other than an opportunity to participate, and it doesn't take anything from them that they are not volunteering. And certainly PrimeGrid is trying to show some appreciation through these token rewards (credits, badges, jerseys, announcements) and venues for friendly competition and discussion. Naturally, people with more resources at their disposal will get more of these rewards on average. Meanwhile, practically anyone's computer could discover a big prime number. It's a lottery, albeit an uneven one.

So getting to my point, adding a market to the mix does not detract from the essential qualities that make PrimeGrid the community that it is. I posit that a market in subproject credits would enhance PrimeGrid. A market won't destroy an iota of computation.

Perhaps I touched a nerve with the possibility of speculation, or a concern that fluctuating market-based exchange rates between credits of different subprojects will affect each person's total BOINC credit even when they don't engage in trading. It doesn't have to be that way - in fact 2 totals can be shown, the regular BOINC total and the market-weighted total. Each person has the choice of ascribing whatever importance they like toward these totals. The BOINC total matters only to people that are choosing between projects based on that arbitrary value.

Ultimately, besides adding a new "fun" dimension to the community, the market will eventally reveal the relative value of working on various subprojects. Maybe a task of PPS SV isn't worth 5 times the value of TRP SV when it takes only 10% of the electricity to compute.

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Eliminated 1 conjecture "k"Found 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (229,492)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (110,733)PPS LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (11,335,374)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (104,385)SoB LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (106,117)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (139,802)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,325,207)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (626,755)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (122,944)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (104,900)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,000,599)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (515,556)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (11,872,830)TRP Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (255,612)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,583,960)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,334,026)WW Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,088,000)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,522,050)
Message 105409 - Posted: 26 Feb 2017 | 21:59:51 UTC - in response to Message 105387.
Last modified: 26 Feb 2017 | 22:04:04 UTC


Well now we have a really interesting discussion happening, worthy of a debate that is getting seriously off-topic.

You are doubtlessly saying that PrimeGrid is about fun and excitement and the advancement of science, and I agree wholeheartedly with you. But there's more to it than that.

By leaving economics out of the picture, we quietly ignore the fact that real people are volunteering real resources that cost real money and time. I think the concern is that the slightest offence could trigger anyone into becoming hostile or leaving PrimeGrid.



Composite, I am just small user here: with three computers ( 12 cores in total)
Every BOINC project use my computers, my resources, and I pay electricity bill.
And every project tend to have most optimized applications that will use 100% of your resources.
So that is simple fact.
On the other side, on Primegrid I can find prime and I will be in (most cases) on Top 5000 page sometime. On SETI I can find ET call, etc etc. So what is most important here: you must ask yourself : does you join Primegrid for finding primes or for make collection of badges. If you want to find primes: then you , with your own will decide to pay electricity bill , and use your resources . Reward is prime when you find it. If you decide to collect badges, then it is same: you , with your own will decide that. You can left PG any time you want. Your resources will be used 0% and you will never find prime , but you will not pay for electricity bill :)
Personally I am here to find GFN prime ( 750TI, uses very little of CPU resources) I dont care is someone have billions of credits and have pile of badges. Those badges exist only here... ( evil smile)
Every user here,make own choice and can if want left PG at any moment. So if someone will try to buy credits, to trade credits, then it is perfectly OK

People tend to have competition spirit. The always to go further, to make more credits, to earn more badges. If you bother with that fact,then it will be yours, and yours problem only.
____________
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4 * 650^498101-1 CRUS PRIME
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Discovered 2 mega primesFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,477,467)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (776,297)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,433,680)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,093,491)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (27,387,734)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,587,988)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (34,539,431)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,110,877)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,486,285)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,070,795)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,693,614)321 Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,256,050)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,571,178)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,009,610)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (388,039,802)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,165,888)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,071,454)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,616,128)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (53,771,465)WW Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (932,000)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (102,762,384)
Message 105421 - Posted: 27 Feb 2017 | 8:12:46 UTC - in response to Message 105409.
Last modified: 27 Feb 2017 | 8:32:32 UTC

Thanks Crun-chi for your more considered response. I was answering to the objection that "economic" valuation work on PG would be source of unnecessary conflict. If those unsubstantiated remarks came from a less esteemed group of community members, I would say that I was being trolled. However I don't mind engaging in a tag-team discussion. You, my friend, have given more consideration to the subject.

So what is most important here: you must ask yourself : does you join Primegrid for finding primes or for make collection of badges.

That is the crux of the matter.

The fact that PG at all bothers to track credits in subprojects is a testament to the motivation behind it. To alleviate the boredom that sets in on interminably long work, there needs to be some distraction - songs sung on the long march to a destination. Badges, credits, and competitions are such a distraction. People need to see that things are going somewhere so that they can set intermediate goals for themselves, lest they abandon hope in achieving some long-term goal.

The market idea is another such diversion, hopefully worth much more than it's investment in development time. We are after all looking for a way to grow PrimeGrid by increasing the appeal of the work at hand to a much larger crowd which is less interested in the science. Gamification if you like. An optional market in subproject credits is in no way a distraction for members who join PrimeGrid purely to find primes.

EDIT: I would further add, upon noting the preponderance of members who are attempting to achieve a set of badges of the same colour, there is a non-competitive game going on here at PG.

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Discovered the World's First base 116 Generalized Cullen prime!!!Discovered 28 mega primesEliminated 7 conjecture "k"sDiscovered 1 Sophie Germain pairDiscovered 2 Fermat divisors2012 Tour de Primes highest prime count2012 Tour de Primes most Mountain Stage primes2015 Tour de Primes highest prime count2016 Tour de Primes highest prime countFound 23 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2018 Tour de Primes Mountain Stage2019 Tour de Primes highest prime countFound 22 primes in the 2019 Tour de Primes2020 Tour de Primes highest prime scoreFound 21 primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 4 mega primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 8 primes in the 2021 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,403,028)Cullen LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,409,561)ESP LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (214,825,147)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (133,885,847)PPS LLR Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (735,636,940)PSP LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (181,620,672)SoB LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (207,028,068)SR5 LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (214,437,634)SGS LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (205,718,935)TPS LLR (retired) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (235,439)TRP LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,215,056)Woodall LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,651,344)321 Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (235,451,253)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (83,794,448)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (285,139,652)PPS Sieve Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (2,731,619,939)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (203,523,358)TRP Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,489,157)AP 26/27 Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (443,297,270)GFN Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (2,148,407,858)WW Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (2,473,184,000)PSA Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (259,058,048)
Message 105432 - Posted: 27 Feb 2017 | 15:24:51 UTC

**Note: I am speaking here only as a user and not in any administrative capacity**

The fact that PG at all bothers to track credits in subprojects is a testament to the motivation behind it. To alleviate the boredom that sets in on interminably long work, there needs to be some distraction - songs sung on the long march to a destination. Badges, credits, and competitions are such a distraction. People need to see that things are going somewhere so that they can set intermediate goals for themselves, lest they abandon hope in achieving some long-term goal.


Actually, the primary reason that BOINC uses a credit system (and not just PG), and by extension why most BOINC projects (including PG) incorporate some sort of badges system, is not to alleviate boredom or to provide distraction. Rather, as has been noted for a century or more in research on volunteering and gift exchange (see for example Marcel Mauss' book "The Gift"), no one really volunteers or gives a gift with complete altruism. Credits (and by extension, badges) provide some form of "compensation" to the volunteer...whether of real value or only perceived value does not matter.

That said, I would not be in favor of users' ability to exchange credits in any sort of marketplace. A primary reason to offer badges is to motivate users to do work across a variety of projects so that all PG projects advance. A marketplace would, in many ways, defeat that purpose by devaluing badges (i.e., did one really do all those long SoB units, or did they just buy it with a bunch of PPS sieve credit, etc.).

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Found 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de Primes321 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (860,905)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (506,431)ESP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (818,638)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (513,349)PPS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,025,655)PSP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (555,892)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,296,322)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,858,489)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,410,704)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (790,691)Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (532,512)321 Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (551,946)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,321,574)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (21,786,773)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (528,024)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,220,704)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (51,663,702)PSA Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (34,628,282)
Message 105435 - Posted: 27 Feb 2017 | 18:08:43 UTC - in response to Message 105432.

I would second Scott Browns feelings

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Found 2 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,000,095)Cullen LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,008,839)ESP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,006,418)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,006,485)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,997,569)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,888,926)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,306,239)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,560,453)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,048,045)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,001,707)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,007,879)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,003,334)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (268,250)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,000,502)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (307,000,341)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,000,133)TRP Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,000,970)AP 26/27 Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (200,128,500)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (170,400,013)WW Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (543,536,000)PSA Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (200,000,001)
Message 105437 - Posted: 27 Feb 2017 | 18:35:02 UTC

It would massively complicate things & alienate new users. We should all just be proud of & appreciate our own achievements within our own spheres of capability.

Nonetheless an interesting discussion to air.

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Eliminated 1 conjecture "k"Found 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (229,492)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (110,733)PPS LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (11,335,374)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (104,385)SoB LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (106,117)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (139,802)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,325,207)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (626,755)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (122,944)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (104,900)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,000,599)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (515,556)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (11,872,830)TRP Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (255,612)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,583,960)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,334,026)WW Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,088,000)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,522,050)
Message 105442 - Posted: 27 Feb 2017 | 19:45:08 UTC - in response to Message 105437.

You can also look in this direction: what you give, you take.
Why I love Primegrid: because I can do PPS sieve on my GPU, earn some credits and remove some candidates. Now, I ( when choose) do LLR with data that someone in past filtered for me ( and earn some credits and badges)
Same is for every other project: Primegrid is self-sustained system: with huge capacity. And if we stop now with sieving process we have data for many years to do. Even ( and in future will be) speed and programs speed-up we still have so many data prepared :)
Trading : hm: lets make hypothetic situation: some guy come here: will real money and say: who want to sell his PSA double bronze badge? I offer 500$.
Will you sell it? I can bet that 90% of users here, will sell it in the seconds.
Because, the only thing a person is more greedy than the glory is money :)
And that never be changed ( history show that fact many time)
____________
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Discovered 2 mega primesFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,477,467)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (776,297)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,433,680)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,093,491)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (27,387,734)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,587,988)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (34,539,431)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,110,877)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,486,285)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,070,795)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,693,614)321 Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,256,050)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,571,178)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,009,610)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (388,039,802)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,165,888)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,071,454)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,616,128)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (53,771,465)WW Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (932,000)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (102,762,384)
Message 105445 - Posted: 28 Feb 2017 | 2:07:09 UTC
Last modified: 28 Feb 2017 | 2:13:14 UTC

I'm trying to be brief, so if I haven't addressed a point, please don't read anything special into my lack of attention to it.

Crun-chi wrote:
Trading : hm: lets make hypothetic situation: some guy come here: will real money and say: who want to sell his PSA double bronze badge? I offer 500$.

I'm glad you raised that. Let this proposal not be misunderstood. It is a barter marketplace - credit in subproject X for credit in subproject Y (with variable exchange rate). There is no way to buy into a credit position with money. The bid-ask board is a square matrix indexed by subprojects along the rows and columns, with the main diagonal omitted or blacked out.

Money can buy someone into a GPU farm, etc. but that is not a tradeable commodity in this market. The credits generated using that farm with PrimeGrid would be tradeable. The underlying currency is CPU/GPU cycles spent on PimeGrid tasks.

Note that the market doesn't include prime finds. Credits are separate from results. Prime scores and recognitions remain with the actual prime finders. Acquiring SoB credit via trading helps you no more to find a prime than crunching on a sieve.

Scott Brown wrote:
Credits (and by extension, badges) provide some form of "compensation" to the volunteer...whether of real value or only perceived value does not matter.

Indeed, and I stand corrected by the research. Yet some of us have less patience (hence more boredom).

Scott Brown wrote:
A primary reason to offer badges is to motivate users to do work across a variety of projects so that all PG projects advance. A marketplace would, in many ways, defeat that purpose by devaluing badges (i.e., did one really do all those long SoB units, or did they just buy it with a bunch of PPS sieve credit, etc.).

I respectfully but forcefully disagree. Economic theory says that markets maximize the utility of resources, so this market theoretically maximizes the valued contributions to PrimeGrid. The variation in bid-ask is driven by the supply of credits of different kinds, which relates to the relative efficiency of different computers on different subprojects. A computer with AVX2 typically has higher computational return by specializing in LLR credits rather than sieving credits, so why not always use it in the best way possible?

I can understand however that "established users" who have invested mightily in their current badges might feel slighted by the "nouveau riche". I don't exactly have a solution for that. A different set of badges for the market?

If everyone hunkered down on PPS SV for a long while because it got them a lot of credits, those credits would have negligible worth in the market because of the oversupply. So people would work on something that is more valuable. This raises another point - the huge stockpile of pre-market credits must be excluded from the market to prevent the collapse of values.

A nice way to prevent this from becoming an ongoing issue would be to permanently remove credits from the market when they are "consumed" by a badge. This would certainly add an interesting dynamic to the market when a related challenge is underway.

An additional statistic that is useful to the market is a table of total credits by subproject that are eligible to be traded at a given time - the liquidity of these credits.

Dave wrote:
It would massively complicate things & alienate new users.

I disagree. Participation in the market is optional, just as selecting what subprojects you will crunch is optional. PrimeGrid will work just the same.

As you might tell, your comments are valuable in developing ideas that might make this workable.

I'm starting to like the idea of using credit liquidity ratios as market exchange rates. Using ratios of the global total of "available" credits between subprojects as exchange rates would eliminate the pricing strategy aspect from the market. Then all that's left is for individual members to enter orders: asking for up to 'x' credits of subproject X, while offering up to 'y' credits from subproject Y and 'z' credits from subproject Z. The market engine takes care of matching orders as they are queued, and nobody would know who the counterparties are. That might be complicated to develop, but not complicated to use.

One restriction is that a member must not be able to simultaneously have open orders asking and offering credits from the same subproject, or similarly by creating a cycle of orders. That's not difficult to detect on attempting to place an order.

There is also the "fun" of speculating or trying to time the market, especially with a challenge is on, or you have inside knowledge that someone (or a group) is about to roll into a new badge which extinguishes a large number of particular credits that significantly impacts liquidity.

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Eliminated 1 conjecture "k"Found 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (229,492)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (110,733)PPS LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (11,335,374)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (104,385)SoB LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (106,117)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (139,802)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,325,207)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (626,755)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (122,944)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (104,900)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,000,599)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (515,556)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (11,872,830)TRP Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (255,612)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,583,960)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,334,026)WW Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,088,000)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,522,050)
Message 105448 - Posted: 28 Feb 2017 | 8:43:10 UTC - in response to Message 105445.


composite wrote:

I'm glad you raised that. Let this proposal not be misunderstood. It is a barter marketplace - credit in subproject X for credit in subproject Y (with variable exchange rate). There is no way to buy into a credit position with money. The bid-ask board is a square matrix indexed by subprojects along the rows and columns, with the main diagonal omitted or blacked out.

Money can buy someone into a GPU farm, etc. but that is not a tradeable commodity in this market. The credits generated using that farm with PrimeGrid would be tradeable. The underlying currency is CPU/GPU cycles spent on PimeGrid tasks.

Note that the market doesn't include prime finds. Credits are separate from results. Prime scores and recognitions remain with the actual prime finders. Acquiring SoB credit via trading helps you no more to find a prime than crunching on a sieve.



So , you say this: I have 1M PSA credits more then I need for badge, but I miss 50K credits for SR5 project, and dont have available CPU power to get it, and "project will be closed in few days" and I will miss new badge. So lets trade.
But "worth" of any credits of any sub project is very variable thing. It is not like Bitcoin trade: more power, less to get: ratio remain still.
And credits without primes will soon loose any sense. People need full package ( and that is our case) cannot be done. So maybe trade is good for prime-less project like sieving.
____________
92*10^1439761-1 NEAR-REPDIGIT PRIME :) :) :)
4 * 650^498101-1 CRUS PRIME
314187728^131072+1 GENERALIZED FERMAT
Proud member of team Aggie The Pew. Go Aggie!

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Found 2 primes in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,048,709)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,026,008)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,098,225)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,127,156)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,015,895)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,117,327)SoB LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,444,765)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,093,822)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,012,543)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,050,008)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,062,520)321 Sieve (suspended) Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (102,500,323)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (100,500,349)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (243,349,119)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (14,516,062)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,329,228)AP 26/27 Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (60,167,926)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (104,032,849)WW Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (100,228,000)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (116,531,700)
Message 105449 - Posted: 28 Feb 2017 | 9:49:35 UTC - in response to Message 105445.

There is also the "fun" of speculating or trying to time the market, especially with a challenge is on, or you have inside knowledge that someone (or a group) is about to roll into a new badge which extinguishes a large number of particular credits that significantly impacts liquidity.

What you are basically describing is a PrimeGrid stock market.

We are all here to have fun crunching, hopefully discover a few primes and get an additional adrenaline rush with the challenges when competing with and against each other in a friendly and civilized manner. What you describe above in my quoted message is simply a digression which mitigates the true spirit of BOINC and PrimeGrid. Keeping things simple and straight-forward is very appealing and there is no need to complicate matters unnecessarily by buying/trading credits so as speculate, grab an otherwise unreachable badge etc.

At the same time, who will maintain and coordinate the stock market you describe? I suspect there will be trivial interest in what you describe.

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RAC: 0
321 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (528,910)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (534,381)ESP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (607,980)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (285,579)PPS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,471,317)PSP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,506,859)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (567,548)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (377,107)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,692,162)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (837,115)Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (856,316)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (13,144,242)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,209,176)PPS Sieve Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (674,722,505)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (219,210)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (524,540)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (16,895,697)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (105,712,531)WW Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (29,580,000)
Message 105476 - Posted: 1 Mar 2017 | 1:26:06 UTC - in response to Message 105378.
Last modified: 1 Mar 2017 | 1:36:58 UTC

Composite " So maybe someone having a supercomputer on hand, or the cash to rent a cloud."

This option exists for a long time and is called rent dedicated server .. but i think you to know it :-)
But you probably want something like the "offer outside the official" under hand we call it

Unfortunately rent a dedicated server is always expensive. More expensive than you buy your own hardware +price of electricity+other etc.... its cheaper because you are responsible for your own hw alone, and also for operating/care for own Hw. When you renting for officially, all responsibility and care take company but you must pay for it -)
They(company s) also must use expensive genuine processors with all of guarantee.
While regular user has an excellent possibility to use the ES enginering pieces from ebay..Yes there are always risks but profit is huge-)
Here is some url s maybe help someone but the large majority of the leases are completely focused on other purposes like Crunching Boinc -( ..
https://www.webhostingtalk.com/tags.php?tag=cheap+dedicated+server + compute or game
If you think/hope rent some of V4 Xeons cpus ..wahooo.. rent is soo expensive .. becouse genuine cpus is expens. as hell.. thats way .. maybe you can find some company with xeons X5xxx but its still expensive..
Ryzen can help boinc users with single computer..based .but cooling can make it more expensive and its only 16core aka ht on "flag ship cpu" for 610eu.. we can see next month how ryzen it)) . but for boinc users with the possibility to have home multiple computers is ryzen not much help .
Sometimes are on ebay in usa superb deals for servers but imported them in europe or elsewhere has been too expensive ..

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Joined: 16 Feb 10
Posts: 841
ID: 55391
Credit: 786,846,878
RAC: 443,879
Discovered 2 mega primesFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,477,467)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (776,297)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,433,680)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,093,491)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (27,387,734)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,587,988)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (34,539,431)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,110,877)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,486,285)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,070,795)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,693,614)321 Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,256,050)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,571,178)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,009,610)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (388,039,802)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,165,888)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,071,454)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,616,128)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (53,771,465)WW Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (932,000)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (102,762,384)
Message 105477 - Posted: 1 Mar 2017 | 1:37:30 UTC
Last modified: 1 Mar 2017 | 1:40:28 UTC

Anthony Ayiomamitis wrote:
What you are basically describing is a PrimeGrid stock market.

Every market has a trade clearing mechanism, whether it's stocks, foreign exchange, electrical power, or commodities (wheat, fossil fuels, pork bellies, etc.). But it's not a stock market - it's closer in principle to a commodities market since the supply of credits is consumed by badges, whereas stocks do not get consumed in the production of something else. It is also very different from every financial-based market where the objective of trade is to globally maximize economic gains (profits). Instead we want to maximize the production of credits (i.e. apply more crunching power to PrimeGrid tasks). A market is an efficient and impartial mechanism for guiding the allocation of distributed resources. Contrast this with another method of resource allocation - the "command economy" (central planning, communism). You need to see beyond the usual perception of markets as profit-centred entities.

Anthony Ayiomamitis wrote:
We are all here to have fun crunching, hopefully discover a few primes and get an additional adrenaline rush with the challenges when competing with and against each other in a friendly and civilized manner. What you describe above in my quoted message is simply a digression which mitigates the true spirit of BOINC and PrimeGrid. Keeping things simple and straight-forward is very appealing and there is no need to complicate matters unnecessarily by buying/trading credits so as speculate, grab an otherwise unreachable badge etc.

There is NO buying of credits. Market participants must compute to get credits that they can trade.

Anthony Ayiomamitis wrote:
At the same time, who will maintain and coordinate the stock market you describe? I suspect there will be trivial interest in what you describe.

The market engine is computer software. There hasn't been manual market clearing in anything for at least 10 years. Some markets have been automated for more than 20 years.

In a profit-based market, the clearing price is determined by market participants' bid and offer prices (money). But in our case, we want credit exchange rates to be set more or less by relative computational power applied to subprojects. Less-computed projects will have a smaller supply of credits so they will require more of the more commonly available credits in exchange.

Crun-chi wrote:
So , you say this: I have 1M PSA credits more then I need for badge, but I miss 50K credits for SR5 project, and dont have available CPU power to get it, and "project will be closed in few days" and I will miss new badge. So lets trade.

Correct!

Crun-chi wrote:
But "worth" of any credits of any sub project is very variable thing. It is not like Bitcoin trade: more power, less to get: ratio remain still.

I expect credit exchange rates to change slowly except during challenges (and at the beginning of the market, when people are boosting their badge levels). There are many many people earning credits in PrimeGrid, so the pool of unused credits is quite deep. And don't forget, if you take some of my SoB credits in exchange for some of your TRP credits, the total quantity of neither of these credits has changed globally until they are retired by badges.

Bitcoin is another thing exchangeable for money and other goods. The supply of new blocks is limited, but the work to recompute blockchains is not. It's a very wasteful use of computing resources. Currency should not have such high overhead. I hope that distributed ledger technology saves us from Bitcoin and the like.

Crun-chi wrote:
And credits without primes will soon loose any sense. People need full package ( and that is our case) cannot be done. So maybe trade is good for prime-less project like sieving.

From this perspective, badges already don't make sense. But tons of people are trying to get those. And that's what we want, tons of people trying to get credits. Finding primes and getting credits/badges are already separate pleasures, they just happen to be linked by PrimeGrid tasks.

Jozef J... yes I (very) briefly investigated the costs of rent-a-box, thereby coming to the realization that trading credits is better.

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Joined: 16 Feb 10
Posts: 841
ID: 55391
Credit: 786,846,878
RAC: 443,879
Discovered 2 mega primesFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,477,467)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (776,297)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,433,680)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,093,491)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (27,387,734)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,587,988)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (34,539,431)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,110,877)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,486,285)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,070,795)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,693,614)321 Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,256,050)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,571,178)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,009,610)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (388,039,802)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,165,888)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,071,454)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,616,128)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (53,771,465)WW Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (932,000)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (102,762,384)
Message 105498 - Posted: 2 Mar 2017 | 10:05:31 UTC

I'm not hearing much positive feedback, so I guess there's little interest, even though this barter market is essentially material for a research topic.

Standard markets are mediated by money, so that each order needs to deal with only one side of a trade (buying or selling). I found a virtual barter market online that uses "local currency" to mediate trade, so it's really just a standard market in disguise.

This credit barter market would be unique, being based on list of formulaic exchange rates and a requirement that each user must have simultaneously active "buy" and "sell" orders in different subprojects. When a user runs out of orders on one side or the other, the user's remaining open orders become dormant and are skipped by the market clearing engine until the user has more credits to trade on the empty side, or the user cancels the unfilled portion of open orders.

It seems reasonable for the user to ask to "sell" more credits than he/she has in a subproject, which then automatically posts any new credits freshly made onto the market, for exchange with open "buy" orders that the user has.

This is what the user sees...

For each subproject the user has "buy", and "sell" buttons, along with a text box to enter how many credits to trade into or out of that subproject. The subproject also shows how many credits are currently surplus to the latest badge, and how many more are needed for the next badge (we have this last part already).

There is also a list of unfilled orders. Each order shows the trade side (buy/sell), the amount of credits ordered, the amount filled so far, the amount left to be traded, and a cancel button (which only cancels the unfilled portion of the order).

As far as the user controlling the sequence of presenting orders, it's a priority queue. Unfilled orders initially have a default "medium" numerical priority, and + / - buttons to raise and lower the priority of unfilled orders, so that higher priority orders are traded before lower priority orders, while orders at the same priority are filled in chronological order. These priorities are just for the user. The market clearing engine treats all orders as appearing in a FIFO. When the engine sees a dormant order at the head of the queue, the order is sent to the back of the queue.

Message boards : General discussion : The "marketplace"

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