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Message boards : Number crunching : FACT: If you have slow GPU, you will not ever be the first to find a prime.

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sonthakit
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Cullen LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (11,990)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (10,779)PPS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (11,057)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (12,260)SGS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (10,107)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (20,699)PPS Sieve Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (39,350)TRP Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (10,035)AP 26/27 Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (873,288)GFN Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,993,700)
Message 103789 - Posted: 18 Jan 2017 | 15:03:22 UTC

After 7 years, no luck to be the first one to find any prime.

And finally I find the reason.

1)Sieve subproject do not find prime. Only LLR subprojects find prime.

2)Prime is random, you need to have luck to get it.

3)If you are lucky to get a prime, then you need to finish the task before the other one. This is the secret that PrimeGrid don't want to tell you. Because every task will not wait for you to finish. It will send to the another one within minutes or a few hours. Even if you are the first one to get this task, if you finish the task later than the other, you will be named just as a "confirm"

So, if you want to find a prime, you need to finish the job as fast as possible by
1) Only LLR subproject
2) Use very very fast GPU (which I cannot effort)
3) Do not participate any other Boinc project. The other project will share your GPU time and make your PrimeGrid job finish later.
4) Do not buffer Boinc job. Just request one job and immediately run it. If you get many buffer jobs, the other one will finish your job before even you start it.
5) Pray that the other one competitor is using GPU slower than you.

If you do not have money and using only slow GPU like me, you will not find any prime. PrimeGrid will deceive you to "confirm" the other. "FAST computer find prime, slow computer confirm prime", that is the truth.

So, I quit.

Until PrimeGrid change the policy to let the task finish before send the task to the other one to confirm, I will not come back.

Sonthakit

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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,132,712)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,934,619)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,162,020)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,145,754)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,751,038)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,197,957)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,718,606)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,963,361)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,118,303)WW Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (31,412,000)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (77,916,132)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 103790 - Posted: 18 Jan 2017 | 15:32:29 UTC

GPUs can't be used at all on LLR projects. All LLR projects are only for CPUs.

Are you talking about Genefer (GFN)?

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Message 103791 - Posted: 18 Jan 2017 | 15:35:10 UTC - in response to Message 103789.
Last modified: 18 Jan 2017 | 15:47:54 UTC

After 7 years, no luck to be the first one to find any prime.

And finally I find the reason.

1)Sieve subproject do not find prime. Only LLR subprojects find prime.

True. Except GFN also finds primes. Edit: AP27 also finds small primes, but not top-5000 primes.

2)Prime is random, you need to have luck to get it.

3)If you are lucky to get a prime, then you need to finish the task before the other one. This is the secret that PrimeGrid don't want to tell you. Because every task will not wait for you to finish. It will send to the another one within minutes or a few hours. Even if you are the first one to get this task, if you finish the task later than the other, you will be named just as a "confirm"

So, if you want to find a prime, you need to finish the job as fast as possible by
1) Only LLR subproject
2) Use very very fast GPU (which I cannot effort)

I think you're better off with a fast CPU. In this context, a recent but low-end desktop i3 (2000-series or later) is a decently fast CPU.

Edit2: Also, turn hyper-threading off, or at least run only as many tasks as you have real cores. Otherwise you're effectively cutting your speed in half!

If doing GFN on a GPU, it seems like more shaders are wasted, but more GHz are not. In that respect, a 1050Ti or a 1060 3GB like mine might be optimal. (Or maybe I'm biased?)

3) Do not participate any other Boinc project. The other project will share your GPU time and make your PrimeGrid job finish later.
4) Do not buffer Boinc job. Just request one job and immediately run it. If you get many buffer jobs, the other one will finish your job before even you start it.
5) Pray that the other one competitor is using GPU slower than you.

6) Pick your sub-project(s) carefully! Look for projects with a number in the "Prime
Rank" column on the homepage that is large, but not "5K+". The larger the number, under 5K, the faster the work units will run and the more likely they are to be prime.

If you do not have money and using only slow GPU like me, you will not find any prime. PrimeGrid will deceive you to "confirm" the other. "FAST computer find prime, slow computer confirm prime", that is the truth.

So, I quit.

Until PrimeGrid change the policy to let the task finish before send the task to the other one to confirm, I will not come back.

Sonthakit

That seems like a decent idea. The second task could at least be delayed by the average time to complete a task, when not doing a Challenge.
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Message 103793 - Posted: 18 Jan 2017 | 15:51:57 UTC - in response to Message 103789.

Until PrimeGrid change the policy to let the task finish before send the task to the other one to confirm, I will not come back.

While this might seem like a great idea at first, it'll only make it so that tasks take much longer to validate, which comes with a host of problems associated with it:

1-There are people that complain about the lack of primes. If we implement this, then there'll be the ones to complain about how long it takes for their tasks to validate and give credit (and those already pop here every once in a while).
2-If there's a problem on a given computer (say, it's overheating), tasks taking longer to validate will only delay the discovery by a lot. In the meantime, such computer will be wasting resources trying to crunch stuff without being reliable, and the user would never know... To make things worse, those failed tasks will mean, once again, even longer validation times for other users.
3- That's more load on the server. There's a limit on how many WU can be stored at once.
4- Assuming that a prime is indeed found, delayed validation will only delay the announcement/discovery of the prime, which in turn will mean that people would be crunching useless work, in the case of projects such as SoB or TRP.
5-Consider the folks that run BIG caches. If the server was to send new work only after the previous one was returned... oh boy, it would take weeks just to send a new task. Couple that with 4, and you are looking at a lot of wasted crunching power.

While I understand your worries about not getting primes (wish I had more of them myself, I only have one more prime than you do, even with A LOT more crunching..), this is a change that will benefit ONE guy (that got lucky and would have been at least a double checker anyway) while bringing many problems to the rest of the user base and the prime hunt / math sience behind each project.

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Discovered the World's First base 116 Generalized Cullen prime!!!Discovered 28 mega primesEliminated 7 conjecture "k"sDiscovered 1 Sophie Germain pairDiscovered 2 Fermat divisors2012 Tour de Primes highest prime count2012 Tour de Primes most Mountain Stage primes2015 Tour de Primes highest prime count2016 Tour de Primes highest prime countFound 23 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2018 Tour de Primes Mountain Stage2019 Tour de Primes highest prime countFound 22 primes in the 2019 Tour de Primes2020 Tour de Primes highest prime scoreFound 21 primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 4 mega primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 8 primes in the 2021 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,403,028)Cullen LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,409,561)ESP LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (205,157,567)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (109,580,172)PPS LLR Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (728,303,290)PSP LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (126,982,721)SoB LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (207,028,068)SR5 LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (214,437,634)SGS LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (203,145,548)TPS LLR (retired) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (235,439)TRP LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,215,056)Woodall LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (151,402,607)321 Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (235,451,253)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (83,794,448)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (285,139,652)PPS Sieve Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (2,728,960,220)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (203,523,358)TRP Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,489,157)AP 26/27 Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (385,720,907)WW Double Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000,000 credits (1,460,696,000)GFN Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (2,082,472,621)PSA Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (259,058,048)
Message 103794 - Posted: 18 Jan 2017 | 15:54:13 UTC


I am sorry that you feel this way, but I need to point out that the title of your thread is simply not true. For example, this mega prime find announcement shows clearly a fairly slow GPU (a GTX 750 Ti) as the prime finder, beating out a GTX 1080 (one of the fastest GPUs currently) as the double checker. A more true statement would be that a faster GPU will increase your chances of being the prime finder rather than the one confirming the prime.

Also regarding a couple of other points you note, it has been repeatedly noted on these forum boards that one reduces their chances of being a prime finder by mixing BOINC projects and by having more than a very small or zero cache of work.


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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,132,712)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,934,619)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,162,020)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,145,754)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,751,038)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,197,957)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,718,606)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,963,361)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,118,303)WW Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (31,412,000)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (77,916,132)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 103795 - Posted: 18 Jan 2017 | 16:01:46 UTC - in response to Message 103791.

Until PrimeGrid change the policy to let the task finish before send the task to the other one to confirm, I will not come back.

Sonthakit

That seems like a decent idea. The second task could at least be delayed by the average time to complete a task, when not doing a Challenge.


The idea has some merit. The downside is that people will have to wait longer for tasks to validate and thus receive credit. Likewise, challenge cleanups would take somewhat longer as well, especially challenges with longer tasks. It's unclear whether this would be a good tradeoff.

I do not agree with the idea that "if you don't have a fast CPU/GPU you can't find primes." Primes are found all the time on slow computers. Is it less likely? Of course. It's not just that you're competing against someone who might return the task sooner -- you're also completing far fewer tasks. The guy who does 100 tasks a day has a better chance of finding a prime than the guy who does 10 tasks a day.

I see ALL the primes that are found at PrimeGrid, and I can assure you that people with slower equipment find primes all the time. Even my ancient AMD Sempron sometimes finishes tasks before the wingman.

Finally, I'm not sure whether BOINC can be configured to do what you're suggesting. I suspect it can, but we've never looked into it.
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Message 103809 - Posted: 18 Jan 2017 | 19:19:56 UTC - in response to Message 103795.

>Finally, I'm not sure whether BOINC can be configured to do what you're suggesting.
> I suspect it can, but we've never looked into it.

A solution that would not necessitate any major technical changes, and that would not bring about any delays with double checking, would be to make both the initial discoverer and the wingman formal discoverers of the prime: INITIAL_FINDER, WINGMAN, Primegrid, ...

But I'll let that option rest now.

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Message 103825 - Posted: 19 Jan 2017 | 6:28:12 UTC - in response to Message 103789.

So, if you want to find a prime, you need to finish the job as fast as possible by
1) Only LLR subproject

I think it's pretty much anything that doesn't say "sieve".

2) Use very very fast GPU (which I cannot effort)

You just have to complete before the other guy. I've finished many many tasks first on hardware slower than my wingman.

3) Do not participate any other Boinc project. The other project will share your GPU time and make your PrimeGrid job finish later.

True. Running other projects also means you're not getting as many chances to get a lucky task.

4) Do not buffer Boinc job. Just request one job and immediately run it. If you get many buffer jobs, the other one will finish your job before even you start it.

True. This has been said many times in many threads on the Message Boards.

5) Pray that the other one competitor is using GPU slower than you.

Or that they run other Bonic projects and/or that they buffer jobs.

You've been trying for 7 years but WuProp only shows you having 8,784 hours total run time for PrimeGrid. By contrast I've only been here 1 year and 1 month and have 106,112 hours. Yes, I've had up to 4 computers running at the same time but you've been averaging less than 4 hours a day (rough estimate) out of a possible 96 hours (assuming 3 CPU cores and 1 GPU).
You have to actually spend some time crunching tasks if you want to better your chances of finding a prime and now that you know the "tricks" you'll be in a much better position to be first.
Don't give up yet, take what you've learned and stick with it at least through the Tour de Primes challenge and see how it goes.

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Message 103826 - Posted: 19 Jan 2017 | 7:59:16 UTC - in response to Message 103789.

Until PrimeGrid change the policy to let the task finish before send the task to the other one to confirm, I will not come back.

You know what will happen with this policy? When people see a doublecheck task, they'll abort it. No task will ever validate. Great, isn't it?

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Credit: 87,330,689
RAC: 0
Discovered 1 mega prime321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,054,648)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (541,906)PPS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,992,143)PSP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (501,381)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (539,532)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (38,279)SGS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (818,946)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (631,413)Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (553,793)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (107,749)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,175,005)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (10,922)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (45,936,678)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (80,908)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (506,539)AP 26/27 Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (147,248)GFN Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (14,408,808)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,284,791)
Message 103829 - Posted: 19 Jan 2017 | 9:58:15 UTC - in response to Message 103826.
Last modified: 19 Jan 2017 | 10:45:39 UTC

To find primes is pure luck. To find one as initial finder is like winning in the lottery.
Some significant primes were found on 'slow' machines.

I found a 1Million+ prime some years ago on a slow machine.
With the new installed Nvidia1070 I found a nice prime within a month.

It's like participating in a car-race:

The faster and more powerful your car, the better the chance to win the race.
Running many fast and powerful cars on different events will increase your chances to win a price.
However; some races are long and painful !

Summary:
If your car is an old model and you can't 'tune' it up , you will always smell the smoke of your opponent's ahead !
And finally - even if your old car would get a time-bonus towards your opponent's
it's very likely that all the fast cars will overtake you during the race!

Happy crunching !

Ammendum 'wingman' :
My experience is that about 30 to 40 % of WU's sent to me are for 'double-checking'
Dont know if it has something to do with my already responded task's ??
Only about 10 % are 'new sent'
All this depending on project's you have choosen.
____________
I'm a prime millionaire !
9*2^3497442+1

Profile DaveProject donor
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Joined: 13 Feb 12
Posts: 2894
ID: 130544
Credit: 1,181,207,149
RAC: 2,171,652
Found 2 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,042,688)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,019,794)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,734,227)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,008,214)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,300,000)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,030,578)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,306,239)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,502,937)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,111,114)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,504,122)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,516,672)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,003,334)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (268,250)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,000,502)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (307,000,341)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,000,133)TRP Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,000,970)AP 26/27 Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (200,128,500)WW Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (200,000,000)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (165,728,532)PSA Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (200,000,001)
Message 103831 - Posted: 19 Jan 2017 | 12:34:11 UTC

FACT: learn patience.

Anthony Ayiomamitis
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Joined: 19 Mar 15
Posts: 2872
ID: 386066
Credit: 895,789,093
RAC: 112,309
Found 2 primes in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,048,709)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,026,008)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,098,225)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,127,156)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,015,895)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,117,327)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,999,813)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,093,822)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,012,543)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,050,008)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,062,520)321 Sieve (suspended) Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (102,500,323)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (100,500,349)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (243,349,119)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (14,516,062)TRP Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,329,228)AP 26/27 Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,307,989)WW Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (100,228,000)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (103,874,298)PSA Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (116,531,700)
Message 103839 - Posted: 19 Jan 2017 | 15:32:40 UTC - in response to Message 103831.

FACT: learn patience.

.... perseverence!

River~~
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Joined: 17 Mar 07
Posts: 342
ID: 6533
Credit: 15,792,075
RAC: 0
321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (124,889)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,779)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (112,791)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (106,156)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,358,025)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (150,832)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (573,744)SR5 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (500,731)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (479,282)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (328,373)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (119,260)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,061,082)PPS Sieve Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (326,987)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (174,708)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (505,558)AP 26/27 Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (598,364)GFN Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,066,295)
Message 103878 - Posted: 20 Jan 2017 | 2:12:38 UTC - in response to Message 103826.

Until PrimeGrid change the policy to let the task finish before send the task to the other one to confirm, I will not come back.

You know what will happen with this policy? When people see a doublecheck task, they'll abort it. No task will ever validate. Great, isn't it?


You could rescue this policy by adding even more complexity. Only issue a "first try" job to someone who has completed more "second try" jobs than "first try" jobs (unless exceptionally there are no "second try" jobs in the queue)

But I wonder about this happening on TdP, where for a whole month only the first finder counts for the competition - even now, there is a strong incentive to refuse a task where the other person has already returned theirs. If that happened to any great extent, tasks that needed a third (inconclusive validations, errors, and aborted tasks) would get relegated to the clean up period.

I believe if this was going to be an issue, it would already be one.

R~~

axn
Volunteer developer
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Joined: 29 Dec 07
Posts: 285
ID: 16874
Credit: 28,027,106
RAC: 0
321 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (656,177)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (457,297)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (437,502)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,256,334)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,246,109)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,193,129)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (101,658)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (292,129)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (32,498)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,515,229)AP 26/27 Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,491,867)GFN Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,245,870)PSA Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (101,309)
Message 103883 - Posted: 20 Jan 2017 | 3:36:14 UTC - in response to Message 103878.

I believe if this was going to be an issue, it would already be one.

R~~

Not quite. There is a big difference between OP's policy and TdP situation.

First off, I was using a bit of hyperbole to exaggerate the unintended consequences. There are a few people who are hell bent on being the initial finder (and who'll therefore abort it), but for the rest of us, it will be business as usual.

Now to the difference. In OP's case, one would be able to see whether a task is an initial or verification, even before the task starts. In fact, you can tell this as soon as the task is downloaded. So you don't have to sit in front of the computer 24x7 monitoring things. There is no loss of crunching by aborting it.

In TdP case, you would have crunched thru a significant fraction of the task before you find out. And you have to monitor all the tasks all the time to see when the other tasks finishes. This is clearly impractical.

Then there is also the possibility that the other cruncher finished before you because they have OC'ed their machine and hence there is a higher than normal chance that their task is in error. So it would be foolish to abort.

River~~
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Joined: 17 Mar 07
Posts: 342
ID: 6533
Credit: 15,792,075
RAC: 0
321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (124,889)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,779)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (112,791)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (106,156)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,358,025)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (150,832)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (573,744)SR5 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (500,731)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (479,282)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (328,373)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (119,260)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,061,082)PPS Sieve Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (326,987)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (174,708)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (505,558)AP 26/27 Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (598,364)GFN Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,066,295)
Message 103911 - Posted: 20 Jan 2017 | 12:33:12 UTC - in response to Message 103883.

I believe if this was going to be an issue, it would already be one.

R~~

Not quite. There is a big difference between OP's policy and TdP situation.

...

Now to the difference. In OP's case, one would be able to see whether a task is an initial or verification, even before the task starts. In fact, you can tell this as soon as the task is downloaded. So you don't have to sit in front of the computer 24x7 monitoring things. There is no loss of crunching by aborting it.

In TdP case, you would have crunched thru a significant fraction of the task before you find out. And you have to monitor all the tasks all the time to see when the other tasks finishes. This is clearly impractical.



I have not explained my thoughts well then.

The "devil's strategy" I was suggesting was not that you abort tasks whenever the wingman reports. Your comment is valid for that scenario.

In contrast, I was suggesting that, at the time tasks are downloaded, you'd abort any where the wingman had ALREADY reported BEFORE you had even started to run them. These truly are "impossible to be first" tasks and can be aborted with no loss of crunching.

This is far fewer tasks, but actually hurts PG worse. I will explain why.

When this happens, the WU is sitting on the PG server waiting for a second (or third in the case of an inconclusive result). If many people were rejecting these, I imagine Michael would notice the build up.

And THAT is what I was saying we do not see, or at least do not see to a worrying extent.

And, I do believe that this sets up what economists call a "perverse incentive". Especially during TdP there is an incentive to behave in a way that hurts the project as a while. That is not a good thing (IMO)

R~~

Message boards : Number crunching : FACT: If you have slow GPU, you will not ever be the first to find a prime.

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