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Message boards : Number crunching : Why are GPU-capable subprojects also run on CPUs?

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Peter Hucker
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Message 146202 - Posted: 6 Dec 2020 | 13:21:14 UTC

There are plenty subprojects where GPUs can't do them, so why aren't the CPUs left to do those? Why allow CPUs to very slowly do something that a GPU could do in a fraction of the time?

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Message 146206 - Posted: 6 Dec 2020 | 13:55:08 UTC - in response to Message 146202.

There are plenty subprojects where GPUs can't do them, so why aren't the CPUs left to do those? Why allow CPUs to very slowly do something that a GPU could do in a fraction of the time?


Not everyone has a GPU, and we don't want to preclude people from participating projects. When feasible, we prefer to be as inclusive as possible.

Also, with multi-threading, a lot of CPUs can be competitive with GPUs.

Also, GPUs come in all shapes and sizes, and some bargain GPUs are so slow that the CPU is actually faster.

CPUs may seem like an afterthought when your GPU is an RTX 3090, but it's a completely different story when your GPU is a GeForce 710. :)

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Message 146207 - Posted: 6 Dec 2020 | 14:00:16 UTC
Last modified: 6 Dec 2020 | 14:01:14 UTC

It is not always true that a CPU is slower than a GPU.
Sometimes, they are about the same performance.
Sometimes, GPU in a notebook is slower then CPU in the same computer.

Sometimes, one can even ask question: why are some GPUs running tasks that a CPU can handle better?

Note that apps are being developed and sometimes a new version gets considerable performance boost. See latest CPU Genefer for example.

Note that CPU can do 16 or more tasks at once using 150W, GPU usually does only one with 250W for example.
It is not only about speed, but overall performance or performance per watt.

For some participants, running tasks on CPUs is the only way to get their badge.

I guess there are plenty of reasons for running CPU or GPU or both.
It is an option, not mandatory.

EDIT: Mike's typing was faster :-)
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Message 146214 - Posted: 6 Dec 2020 | 15:38:42 UTC

I don't think that anyone answered the actual question. I read the question as "if both GPU and CPU can participate in a project and the GPU is xxx faster than the CPU, why support a CPU worker for that project?".

I see two reasons:

1) A user wants to participate in a project because they are interested in it.
2) A user wants a complete set of badges.

PrimeGrid supports because "if someone wants to walk from Atlanta to Boston, we won't stop them, but it will them a lot longer time to do that than to take a plane".

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Message 146220 - Posted: 6 Dec 2020 | 17:36:22 UTC - in response to Message 146214.

I don't think that anyone answered the actual question. I read the question as "if both GPU and CPU can participate in a project and the GPU is xxx faster than the CPU, why support a CPU worker for that project?".

I see two reasons:

1) A user wants to participate in a project because they are interested in it.
2) A user wants a complete set of badges.

PrimeGrid supports because "if someone wants to walk from Atlanta to Boston, we won't stop them, but it will them a lot longer time to do that than to take a plane".
You've hit the nail on the head. Since half the subprojects are CPU only, why not just let the people without a decent GPU do those ones? That still gives them plenty of choice, and they're not pointlessly taking a week to do something somebody else could do in an hour. The first thing I did when I signed up to Primegrid was untick all the CPU boxes for GPU-able subprojects. If I had no GPUs, I would have done the same, knowing that others who have GPUs were doing those ones monumentally faster than I can.

Let's say you have two people working for you, one of them can only do certain tasks, but really fast, call him a labourer, he's got big muscles but isn't very bright, he's like the GPU. The other guy is intelligent but a wimp, he can do anything, but slowly, he's the CPU. You have two lots of stuff to get done, building a brick wall and wiring up some electrics. The only sensible thing to do is get the clever guy to do the difficult work which the labourer can't do. If you set him off helping with the wall, he'll achieve virtually nothing and the electrics will be left undone.

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Message 146227 - Posted: 6 Dec 2020 | 21:18:24 UTC

Well, we*re talking about a project with a scientific goal.
There are people like me who support just about any project that pops up in their known Boinc universe because they want to further science, start to like challenges here and there and throw one machine or a lot of machines at them. Others support one project because it's just their thing, full stop!
If you want your support to be as efficient as possible, you research the projects and their applications, tweak some config files, set different resources for the projects and do whatever you think helps the efficiency.
For me it's a few machines, and my everyday machine is older and slower than those taking part in Boinc.
For people who run Boinc on their personal worker, media player, surfing machine, or what else they are doing with their PET (Personal Electronic Thing, nice labelling by Douglas Adams), the above-mentioned efficiency might not be the best - because it tampers with the PET's responsiveness.
Tweaking everything possible is fine with me, as I use another machine for myself, but imagine someone running Boinc on their PET:
It's nice to have an i7-8700 that runs LLR on all CPU threads (best efficiency for me) and Genefer 21 on the GPU just to push PrimeGrid, while everything else is awfully slow. Oh, wait - that's not nice. Instead it's nice to run Genefer 22 on the GPU (less impact than 21) plus something that does not kill the overall responsiveness as much as LLR. And this something might be a sieve. PrimeGrid had CPU-only sieves, but at the very moment there are none, as there are no sieving goals that can only be achieved without GPU.
Btw.: Sieving is not only better regarding responsiveness on high-end machines - it's also less taxing for the system. So, another use case might be someone who administers a data center or cluster that they want to be doing work so the computers and their cooling run at around the same level all the time to reduce stress on the hardware. Nice job for Boinc and a PrimeGrid sieve, even if it might be done faster by GPUs.

So, there are different users that might want to support PrimeGrid with their own, totally different goals in mind.
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Message 146261 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 13:01:16 UTC

I ran GFN-22 on my CPU. It took 29.4 days but my computer loved every second of it. I only wish I had talked to Michael earlier and learned that my mutithreader wasn't multithreading....
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Message 146275 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 15:56:39 UTC - in response to Message 146220.

I don't think that anyone answered the actual question. I read the question as "if both GPU and CPU can participate in a project and the GPU is xxx faster than the CPU, why support a CPU worker for that project?".

I see two reasons:

1) A user wants to participate in a project because they are interested in it.
2) A user wants a complete set of badges.

PrimeGrid supports because "if someone wants to walk from Atlanta to Boston, we won't stop them, but it will them a lot longer time to do that than to take a plane".
You've hit the nail on the head. Since half the subprojects are CPU only, why not just let the people without a decent GPU do those ones? That still gives them plenty of choice, and they're not pointlessly taking a week to do something somebody else could do in an hour. The first thing I did when I signed up to Primegrid was untick all the CPU boxes for GPU-able subprojects. If I had no GPUs, I would have done the same, knowing that others who have GPUs were doing those ones monumentally faster than I can.

Let's say you have two people working for you, one of them can only do certain tasks, but really fast, call him a labourer, he's got big muscles but isn't very bright, he's like the GPU. The other guy is intelligent but a wimp, he can do anything, but slowly, he's the CPU. You have two lots of stuff to get done, building a brick wall and wiring up some electrics. The only sensible thing to do is get the clever guy to do the difficult work which the labourer can't do. If you set him off helping with the wall, he'll achieve virtually nothing and the electrics will be left undone.


IIUC, you are suggesting that PrimeGrid force end-users to only participate in projects that their computer is best suited for.

It doesn't hurt PrimeGrid in any way if a CPU works on a task that is better suited to a GPU. I think of it this way. If the work done by a project is done 90% GPU and 10% CPU, then you have removed 10% of the computing power from that project. That actually hurts that project instead of helping it.

Conversely one could say that the 10% of CPU could be of better use on a CPU only project. I would agree with that, but what if the participant doesn't care about the CPU only project? What if the participant is only participating in a PrimeGrid project because that project is the only one hosted by PrimeGrid that is of interest to them. Weiferich and Wall-Sun-Sun is a good example of that. It isn't a prime searching project like the others. I would not be surprised if there are participants that are only interested in those projects and none of the others and those participants only have a CPU at their disposal. Why would we want to exclude them from working on the project?

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Message 146277 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 16:22:38 UTC - in response to Message 146261.

I ran GFN-22 on my CPU. It took 29.4 days but my computer loved every second of it. I only wish I had talked to Michael earlier and learned that my mutithreader wasn't multithreading....
If you use Boinctasks, you can easily see what's going on. It shows this: "0:12:18 (3:22:27)" in the elapsed time. The number in brackets is the work done, the number before it is the time taken. I.e. it's using about 16 cores.

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Message 146280 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 16:25:30 UTC - in response to Message 146275.
Last modified: 7 Dec 2020 | 16:28:49 UTC

IIUC, you are suggesting that PrimeGrid force end-users to only participate in projects that their computer is best suited for.

It doesn't hurt PrimeGrid in any way if a CPU works on a task that is better suited to a GPU. I think of it this way. If the work done by a project is done 90% GPU and 10% CPU, then you have removed 10% of the computing power from that project. That actually hurts that project instead of helping it.

Conversely one could say that the 10% of CPU could be of better use on a CPU only project. I would agree with that, but what if the participant doesn't care about the CPU only project? What if the participant is only participating in a PrimeGrid project because that project is the only one hosted by PrimeGrid that is of interest to them. Weiferich and Wall-Sun-Sun is a good example of that. It isn't a prime searching project like the others. I would not be surprised if there are participants that are only interested in those projects and none of the others and those participants only have a CPU at their disposal. Why would we want to exclude them from working on the project?

Primegrid has so many subprojects that surely it's better for all the Primegrid users with CPUs to work on the stuff that GPUs cannot. Every CPU doing GPU-able work is helping that subproject slightly, but severely impacting the CPU-only subproject. Imagine if most CPUs were set to help the GPU work, the CPU-only subprojects would hardly get done. Einstein actually has a tickbox "don't do work on CPU that also has a GPU version". If the CPU work gets finished, the CPUs can always help the GPUs, but if the GPU work is finished, the GPUs are left idle. In every aspect of life, it's obviously better to have someone or something capable of doing something special doing that thing, rather than doing something anyone can. Imagine if all the scientists were roped in to help the binmen. Then all the bins are collected and no science is done, and the binmen are left idle. A crazy system. If you can't follow this then I'm at a loss on how to educate you further.

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Message 146281 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 16:34:00 UTC

It seems that you are assuming that CPUs excluded from GPU sub-projects would naturally be used for CPU-sub-projects at PrimeGrid. Perhaps they would just move to other projects all-together. CPUs on GPU sub-projects at PrimeGrid is better than no CPUs at PrimeGrid at all.

Personally, I want to be able to *also* run CPUs on GPU sub-projects, in order to achieve hour-based goals on wuprop.

____________
Reno, NV

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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,227,348)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,624,591)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,021,269)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,145,754)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,751,038)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,197,957)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,718,606)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,963,361)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,118,303)WW Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,132,000)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (77,916,132)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 146282 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 16:36:20 UTC - in response to Message 146280.

Primegrid has so many subprojects that surely it's better for all the Primegrid users with CPUs to work on the stuff that GPUs cannot.


You're correct -- or at least you would be correct if PrimeGrid owned all of those CPUs.

But we don't own them; you do.

What's best for PrimeGrid is to keep PrimeGrid's users -- who are donating their hardware, their electricity, their personal effort, and even their money -- happy and motivated. We do that in lots of ways, and a part of that is giving people the option to run whatever they want. I'd rather have computers running less than optimal tasks (from out perspective) than have them not running anything at all.
____________
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (109,263)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (199,800)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (84,529)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (60,915)PPS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (29,016)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (296,161)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,227,423)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (32,094)SGS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (18,333)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (48,265)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (239,903)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (30,838)PPS Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,449,090)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (16,965)TRP Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (14,492)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,123,870)WW Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (448,000)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (24,022,672)
Message 146289 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 16:48:34 UTC - in response to Message 146282.

Primegrid has so many subprojects that surely it's better for all the Primegrid users with CPUs to work on the stuff that GPUs cannot.


You're correct -- or at least you would be correct if PrimeGrid owned all of those CPUs.

But we don't own them; you do.

What's best for PrimeGrid is to keep PrimeGrid's users -- who are donating their hardware, their electricity, their personal effort, and even their money -- happy and motivated. We do that in lots of ways, and a part of that is giving people the option to run whatever they want. I'd rather have computers running less than optimal tasks (from out perspective) than have them not running anything at all.

But surely all users think like I do, they want to do as much useful work as possible. I see no point in wasting my CPU time on something that my GPU (or someone else's GPU if I didn't have one) could do in a fraction of the time. Perhaps what you could do is have the default for new users as all the GPU projects unticked for CPU, but let the user re-tick them if they really want to. There could even be a note saying "this subproject runs more efficiently on a GPU, please consider running your CPU on the subprojects that need it."

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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (109,263)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (199,800)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (84,529)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (60,915)PPS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (29,016)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (296,161)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,227,423)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (32,094)SGS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (18,333)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (48,265)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (239,903)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (30,838)PPS Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,449,090)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (16,965)TRP Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (14,492)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,123,870)WW Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (448,000)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (24,022,672)
Message 146290 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 16:51:36 UTC - in response to Message 146281.

It seems that you are assuming that CPUs excluded from GPU sub-projects would naturally be used for CPU-sub-projects at PrimeGrid. Perhaps they would just move to other projects all-together. CPUs on GPU sub-projects at PrimeGrid is better than no CPUs at PrimeGrid at all.

I doubt it, if a user is keen on Primegrid and they can't run their CPU on one of the subprojects, they'll pick another subproject, there's plenty of choice. Why go to the bother of going to another project when there are countless options here for CPU-only work?

Personally, I want to be able to *also* run CPUs on GPU sub-projects, in order to achieve hour-based goals on wuprop.

If I was into getting badges/winning competitions on here, I wouldn't bother putting the CPUs in, since they'd do a tiny fraction of what my GPUs can. It's like getting your grandmother to help with the bricklaying, it's not worth the bother!

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Discovered 1 mega primeEliminated 1 conjecture "k"Discovered 1 twin prime321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,014,405)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,734,854)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,421,149)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,576,209)PPS LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (17,389,837)PSP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,425,342)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,986,628)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,248,659)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,878,856)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,416,106)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,400,237)321 Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,000,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,000,977)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,843,367)PPS Sieve Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (78,673,438)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,473,750)TRP Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,243,608)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,531,383)WW Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,012,000)GFN Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (202,192,765)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,042,125)
Message 146292 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 16:57:05 UTC - in response to Message 146289.

Many people set and forget. They do not read all the information, they just think it is neat to run, then let it roll. They do not care about setting stuff up. This would deplete the project if things were not set balanced.
Those who want to do better on the project work it out and do what they feel their goal is. The project does not want to discourage personal goals.
For example, myself. I at one point had many systems running with some good hardware, life changes required me to slow down. I now have old hardware, want my hardware for certain abilities, but also want to help the project. So I am choosing to run things slower, and gaining my personal goals, without locking me out of using my hardware as I want.
As with life, inclusion makes it easier for most.
____________
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (109,263)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (199,800)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (84,529)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (60,915)PPS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (29,016)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (296,161)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,227,423)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (32,094)SGS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (18,333)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (48,265)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (239,903)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (30,838)PPS Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,449,090)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (16,965)TRP Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (14,492)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,123,870)WW Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (448,000)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (24,022,672)
Message 146295 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 17:02:37 UTC - in response to Message 146292.

Many people set and forget. They do not read all the information, they just think it is neat to run, then let it roll. They do not care about setting stuff up. This would deplete the project if things were not set balanced.

Surely for those who don't read anything and just run it, it's best for the project to give out CPU-only stuff to the CPUs unless the user says otherwise?

Those who want to do better on the project work it out and do what they feel their goal is. The project does not want to discourage personal goals.
For example, myself. I at one point had many systems running with some good hardware, life changes required me to slow down. I now have old hardware, want my hardware for certain abilities, but also want to help the project. So I am choosing to run things slower, and gaining my personal goals, without locking me out of using my hardware as I want.
As with life, inclusion makes it easier for most.

Half the subprojects on here are CPU-only, surely there's at least one you want to do?

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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,227,348)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,624,591)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,021,269)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,145,754)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,751,038)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,197,957)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,718,606)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,963,361)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,118,303)WW Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,132,000)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (77,916,132)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 146298 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 17:30:58 UTC - in response to Message 146289.

But surely all users think like I do...


(Trying this again without joking about politics. My bad, sorry...)

I can't even agree with myself most of the time, let alone alone anyone else! :)
____________
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Discovered the World's First base 116 Generalized Cullen prime!!!Discovered 28 mega primesEliminated 7 conjecture "k"sDiscovered 1 Sophie Germain pairDiscovered 2 Fermat divisors2012 Tour de Primes highest prime count2012 Tour de Primes most Mountain Stage primes2015 Tour de Primes highest prime count2016 Tour de Primes highest prime countFound 23 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2018 Tour de Primes Mountain Stage2019 Tour de Primes highest prime countFound 22 primes in the 2019 Tour de Primes2020 Tour de Primes highest prime scoreFound 21 primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 4 mega primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 8 primes in the 2021 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,403,028)Cullen LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,409,561)ESP LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (203,249,784)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (109,580,172)PPS LLR Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (728,284,255)PSP LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (126,982,721)SoB LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (188,264,708)SR5 LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (214,437,634)SGS LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (202,538,622)TPS LLR (retired) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (235,439)TRP LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,215,056)Woodall LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (104,089,012)321 Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (235,451,253)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (83,794,448)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (285,139,652)PPS Sieve Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (2,728,939,994)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (203,523,358)TRP Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,489,157)AP 26/27 Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (385,720,907)WW Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (891,404,000)GFN Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (2,047,724,529)PSA Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (259,058,048)
Message 146299 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 17:48:49 UTC - in response to Message 146289.
Last modified: 7 Dec 2020 | 17:49:33 UTC


But surely all users think like I do, they want to do as much useful work as possible...


Actually, there is literally decades of social and behavioral scientific work (i.e., sociology, psychology, economics, etc.) that describes in detail why human behavior frequently follows patterns that are far from optimal. And perhaps more importantly, an abundance of literature that notes how humans often "don't want to" operate optimally even when they are told how to do so.

PG has long held to a principle of having the most people have the most access to the most projects possible. I think we should continue to do so.

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Message 146304 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 18:33:55 UTC - in response to Message 146299.

Actually, there is literally decades of social and behavioral scientific work (i.e., sociology, psychology, economics, etc.) that describes in detail why human behavior frequently follows patterns that are far from optimal. And perhaps more importantly, an abundance of literature that notes how humans often "don't want to" operate optimally even when they are told how to do so.

Because we are living beings. If you operate "optimally" then everyone would operate in the same way. With such behaviour, mankind would die in facing an unforeseen event.
Doing anything is a basis for the survival of the group.
You can define an optimal process if all assumptions are known. But this doesn't exist in real life.
... this is not off-topic: that's why the largest number of capabilities for PrimeGrid is better for its future Q.E.D. :o)

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Discovered 6 mega primesEliminated 1 conjecture "k"Found 3 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 5 primes in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 6 primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 5 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,774,878)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,903,451)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,454,573)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,122,074)PPS LLR Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (100,863,217)PSP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,223,714)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,019,367)SR5 LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (25,605,231)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,360,621)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (34,130)TRP LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (21,424,369)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,171,820)321 Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,236,219)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,383,853)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,626,419)PPS Sieve Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (76,969,144)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,293,882)TRP Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,012,757)AP 26/27 Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (21,918,894)WW Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (33,812,000)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (76,982,057)PSA Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,939,755)
Message 146308 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 18:51:29 UTC

What's considered "optimal" may differ depending on the user's goals, even if the hardware is otherwise same.

For example, if you want boinc credit/time, you will run whatever gives the best in that metric. If someone is badge hunting, they might want to put all possible resources on getting there faster, especially if it is a project that is about to end. I'd still consider myself primarily interested in getting the most possible prime number discoveries. For projects still using LLR (not LLR2) then I will trade off maximum throughput for a less efficient but shorter runtime where it makes sense to do so.

I think the balance here is right. Give the user the all the possible options that aren't insane (work will finish before universe ends). Then it is up to the user to do what they want. What is best for one person is not best for everyone. Also I'm not sure what the new user default project selection is now, but I do recall they were chosen to be the "safer" option in terms of hardware stress. So that's another factor.

My personal resources are heavily biased towards CPU running. I wont often put them on GPU projects, but I like to have that option open to me in case something happens to make that something I want to do.

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Message 146310 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 19:27:57 UTC

A basic question behind the premise is "how many users use the default configuration and never change".

I don't know the answer to that question. If any user changes the default configuration, I don't think it is too much to ask them to determine which subprojects they should participate in so that they benefit PrimeGrid the most.

I would certainly not kick users off subprojects because their CPU/GPU cycles would be better off on a different subproject.

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Discovered 1 mega primeEliminated 1 conjecture "k"Discovered 1 twin prime321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,014,405)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,734,854)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,421,149)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,576,209)PPS LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (17,389,837)PSP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,425,342)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,986,628)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,248,659)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,878,856)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,416,106)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,400,237)321 Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,000,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,000,977)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,843,367)PPS Sieve Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (78,673,438)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,473,750)TRP Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,243,608)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,531,383)WW Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,012,000)GFN Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (202,192,765)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,042,125)
Message 146313 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 21:05:14 UTC - in response to Message 146295.

Half the subprojects on here are CPU-only, surely there's at least one you want to do?

Actually NO!
When you have been around this project as long as I have, I want to do what I want, if I can. Since I can, I do. I know I am not always the first, but at this juncture I do not care. I work on things like badges and then a separate "status" on a different project that ties into all projects. Old farts like me, who have worked with computers since the 1970s, have some idea of what they want to do.
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321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,058,073)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,169,946)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,093,381)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,148,593)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,225,852)PSP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,248,861)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,669,219)SR5 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,060,324)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,108,160)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,039,866)Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (944,776)321 Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,107,153)PPS Sieve Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,045,010)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,470,273)WW Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (105,360,000)GFN Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,149,778)PSA Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (517,947)
Message 146315 - Posted: 7 Dec 2020 | 21:11:54 UTC

I used to think like that, force users to focus on specific subprojects, make the most of their hardware and so on. But really, it's up to everyone. There are reasons to use CPU even it might seem strange, many were mentioned. Badge hunting would be another thing.

What might be a good idea though, is adding a warning or message that the selected subproject is very slow on CPU compared to GPU. Then the user can make an informed choice instead of being frustrated when they never find a prime when running DYFL on CPU takes ages and finally abandon the task.

I also think it might be worthwhile to consider choosing another subproject than PPS Sv as default. It's basically throwing away CPU cycles of new users. I know it was chosen for being less hard on the CPU, but is it a good idea?
____________
Primes: 1281979 & 12+8+1979 & 1+2+8+1+9+7+9 & 1^2+2^2+8^2+1^2+9^2+7^2+9^2 & 12*8+19*79 & 12^8-1979 & 1281979 + 4 (cousin prime)

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321 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (784,049)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (529,186)ESP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (513,315)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (521,209)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,675,813)PSP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (566,492)SoB LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (597,244)SR5 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (665,436)SGS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (583,975)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (562,418)Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (615,831)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,014,922)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,101,470)PPS Sieve Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (100,344,557)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (715,073)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (630,833)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,079,199)WW Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (75,536,000)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,647,952)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,644,033)
Message 146325 - Posted: 8 Dec 2020 | 2:14:28 UTC

I have two GPUs, currently running on other projects that don't do CPU apps. I have many CPUs, I use them here on the GPU/CPU apps because I don't have a GPU available to run those apps faster.

My priorities are not necessarily the same as other people's. I am also into WU_Prop.....I want hours. So for me it is actually better to run the GPU/CPU apps on my CPUs. Yes, it is not as "efficient" for the project but at least it is tasks being crunched.
____________
Werinbert is not prime... or PRPnet keeps telling me so.
Badge score: 12x3 + 1x4 + 2x6 + 2x7 + 1x8 + 1x9 + 1x10 = 93

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Discovered 1 mega prime321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,038,739)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,074,615)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,028,743)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,142,353)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,285,482)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,194,746)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,934,612)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,053,250)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,152,318)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,025,737)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,014,811)321 Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,770,672)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (944,431)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,813,253)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (339,850,817)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,446,797)AP 26/27 Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (33,140,471)WW Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,884,000)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (49,144,415)PSA Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,457,430)
Message 146346 - Posted: 8 Dec 2020 | 12:22:11 UTC - in response to Message 146289.


But surely all users think like I do, they want to do as much useful work as possible. I see no point in wasting my CPU time on something that my GPU (or someone else's GPU if I didn't have one) could do in a fraction of the time. Perhaps what you could do is have the default for new users as all the GPU projects unticked for CPU, but let the user re-tick them if they really want to. There could even be a note saying "this subproject runs more efficiently on a GPU, please consider running your CPU on the subprojects that need it."


I think you are missing something in the big picture...sometimes a particular pc for whatever reason just won't crunch a Project without giving continous errors while using the cpu's and being able to come to PrimeGrid and see that everything just runs great is a huge advantage to the user. ie my pc can crunch somewhere doing something needed albeit a bit slower than is ideal but at least the pc is contributing instead of sitting idle AND I know it's NOT the pc that's the problem.

Another example is the RPi people running Einstein, it's one of the few projects where you can use them so they do, it's not very efficient or fast but the work gets done.

Peter Hucker
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (109,263)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (199,800)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (84,529)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (60,915)PPS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (29,016)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (296,161)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,227,423)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (32,094)SGS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (18,333)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (48,265)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (239,903)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (30,838)PPS Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,449,090)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (16,965)TRP Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (14,492)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,123,870)WW Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (448,000)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (24,022,672)
Message 146376 - Posted: 8 Dec 2020 | 18:21:59 UTC - in response to Message 146298.

But surely all users think like I do...


(Trying this again without joking about politics. My bad, sorry...)

I can't even agree with myself most of the time, let alone alone anyone else! :)


Since you asked politely unlike some moderators I could mention (not this forum), I'll re-write mine too.

Do you find that you disagree with your opinion of last year so much that you call people with that opinion you used to have a fool? I know I do.

Peter Hucker
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (109,263)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (199,800)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (84,529)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (60,915)PPS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (29,016)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (296,161)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,227,423)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (32,094)SGS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (18,333)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (48,265)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (239,903)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (30,838)PPS Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,449,090)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (16,965)TRP Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (14,492)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,123,870)WW Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (448,000)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (24,022,672)
Message 146377 - Posted: 8 Dec 2020 | 18:25:56 UTC - in response to Message 146299.


But surely all users think like I do, they want to do as much useful work as possible...


Actually, there is literally decades of social and behavioral scientific work (i.e., sociology, psychology, economics, etc.) that describes in detail why human behavior frequently follows patterns that are far from optimal. And perhaps more importantly, an abundance of literature that notes how humans often "don't want to" operate optimally even when they are told how to do so.

The best people incorporate logic into their decisions. What will cost me more money? What will get the job done quickest? Of course you also factor in things like what will make the task more enjoyable, but that's still logic.

PG has long held to a principle of having the most people have the most access to the most projects possible. I think we should continue to do so.

Since we have a large number of subprojects, I can't see the problem in forcing (or even persuading by default settings and notes in the preferences list) people to use their CPUs for the stuff that GPUs cannot do. Einstein sort of does this with a tickbox to disallow CPU work where a GPU version is available.

Peter Hucker
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Message 146378 - Posted: 8 Dec 2020 | 18:27:14 UTC - in response to Message 146304.

Actually, there is literally decades of social and behavioral scientific work (i.e., sociology, psychology, economics, etc.) that describes in detail why human behavior frequently follows patterns that are far from optimal. And perhaps more importantly, an abundance of literature that notes how humans often "don't want to" operate optimally even when they are told how to do so.

Because we are living beings. If you operate "optimally" then everyone would operate in the same way. With such behaviour, mankind would die in facing an unforeseen event.
Doing anything is a basis for the survival of the group.
You can define an optimal process if all assumptions are known. But this doesn't exist in real life.
... this is not off-topic: that's why the largest number of capabilities for PrimeGrid is better for its future Q.E.D. :o)

You don't have to operate optimally, just fairly optimally. You might choose to cycle to work even though it takes you twice as long as driving. But you wouldn't if it took 10 times as long.

Peter Hucker
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (109,263)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (199,800)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (84,529)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (60,915)PPS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (29,016)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (296,161)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,227,423)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (32,094)SGS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (18,333)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (48,265)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (239,903)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (30,838)PPS Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,449,090)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (16,965)TRP Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (14,492)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,123,870)WW Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (448,000)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (24,022,672)
Message 146380 - Posted: 8 Dec 2020 | 18:31:16 UTC - in response to Message 146308.

What's considered "optimal" may differ depending on the user's goals, even if the hardware is otherwise same.

For example, if you want boinc credit/time, you will run whatever gives the best in that metric. If someone is badge hunting, they might want to put all possible resources on getting there faster, especially if it is a project that is about to end. I'd still consider myself primarily interested in getting the most possible prime number discoveries. For projects still using LLR (not LLR2) then I will trade off maximum throughput for a less efficient but shorter runtime where it makes sense to do so.

I think the balance here is right. Give the user the all the possible options that aren't insane (work will finish before universe ends). Then it is up to the user to do what they want. What is best for one person is not best for everyone. Also I'm not sure what the new user default project selection is now, but I do recall they were chosen to be the "safer" option in terms of hardware stress. So that's another factor.

My personal resources are heavily biased towards CPU running. I wont often put them on GPU projects, but I like to have that option open to me in case something happens to make that something I want to do.


Then make it a choice, but defaulting to the one that's most efficient for the project. GPU work on GPUs, CPU work on CPUs.

I've ticked only 4 subprojects - the biggest and smallest GPU ones and the biggest and smallest CPU ones. I haven't set the CPUs doing anything my GPUs could, as I see it as a waste of my resources. The reason I chose those 4 is: the largest ones are given more credit, which not only means I earn more credits, but more importantly they're given more because the project wants to encourage those to be done. The smallest ones are just fun to see getting done quickly.

Peter Hucker
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Message 146381 - Posted: 8 Dec 2020 | 18:33:51 UTC - in response to Message 146310.

A basic question behind the premise is "how many users use the default configuration and never change".

I don't know the answer to that question. If any user changes the default configuration, I don't think it is too much to ask them to determine which subprojects they should participate in so that they benefit PrimeGrid the most.

I would certainly not kick users off subprojects because their CPU/GPU cycles would be better off on a different subproject.

Agreed completely. Set the defaults to the optimal for the project. Then suggest to the user what is best for the project when they're fiddling about. "This subproject runs 20 times faster on GPU, please consider devoting your CPU time to the subprojects that GPUs cannot do" for example. You could even adjust credits to persuade users to do this.

Peter Hucker
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (109,263)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (199,800)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (84,529)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (60,915)PPS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (29,016)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (296,161)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,227,423)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (32,094)SGS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (18,333)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (48,265)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (239,903)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (30,838)PPS Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,449,090)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (16,965)TRP Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (14,492)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,123,870)WW Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (448,000)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (24,022,672)
Message 146383 - Posted: 8 Dec 2020 | 18:35:51 UTC - in response to Message 146313.

Half the subprojects on here are CPU-only, surely there's at least one you want to do?

Actually NO!
When you have been around this project as long as I have, I want to do what I want, if I can. Since I can, I do. I know I am not always the first, but at this juncture I do not care. I work on things like badges and then a separate "status" on a different project that ties into all projects. Old farts like me, who have worked with computers since the 1970s, have some idea of what they want to do.

If I were you I'd get a cheap old GPU to get the badges for the GPU-able subprojects. You'd get the badges using a lot less electricity and actually save money.

Peter Hucker
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (109,263)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (199,800)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (84,529)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (60,915)PPS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (29,016)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (296,161)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,227,423)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (32,094)SGS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (18,333)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (48,265)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (239,903)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (30,838)PPS Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,449,090)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (16,965)TRP Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (14,492)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,123,870)WW Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (448,000)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (24,022,672)
Message 146385 - Posted: 8 Dec 2020 | 18:39:14 UTC - in response to Message 146346.


But surely all users think like I do, they want to do as much useful work as possible. I see no point in wasting my CPU time on something that my GPU (or someone else's GPU if I didn't have one) could do in a fraction of the time. Perhaps what you could do is have the default for new users as all the GPU projects unticked for CPU, but let the user re-tick them if they really want to. There could even be a note saying "this subproject runs more efficiently on a GPU, please consider running your CPU on the subprojects that need it."


I think you are missing something in the big picture...sometimes a particular pc for whatever reason just won't crunch a Project without giving continous errors while using the cpu's and being able to come to PrimeGrid and see that everything just runs great is a huge advantage to the user. ie my pc can crunch somewhere doing something needed albeit a bit slower than is ideal but at least the pc is contributing instead of sitting idle AND I know it's NOT the pc that's the problem.

Another example is the RPi people running Einstein, it's one of the few projects where you can use them so they do, it's not very efficient or fast but the work gets done.

If my CPU couldn't run anything but Primegrid, I'd come here and run the CPU-only subprojects, knowing I'm doing more useful work than doing the subprojects that someone's GPU could be doing in a fraction of the time. I could still collect the badges for 50% of the subprojects....

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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,227,348)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,624,591)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,021,269)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,145,754)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,751,038)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,197,957)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,718,606)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,963,361)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,118,303)WW Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,132,000)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (77,916,132)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 146388 - Posted: 8 Dec 2020 | 19:01:23 UTC - in response to Message 146376.

But surely all users think like I do...


(Trying this again without joking about politics. My bad, sorry...)

I can't even agree with myself most of the time, let alone alone anyone else! :)


Since you asked politely unlike some moderators I could mention (not this forum), I'll re-write mine too.

Do you find that you disagree with your opinion of last year so much that you call people with that opinion you used to have a fool? I know I do.


If you're asking if I change my mind, sure. I don't believe I know everything there is to know, and I'm always looking to educate myself further. So of course I change my opinion.

As for thinking people are fools for not agreeing with me, I've been around the block a few times. Usually when I think someone else is a moron because their opinion is different than mine, it turns out they know something I don't. :)
____________
My lucky number is 75898524288+1

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Credit: 31,493,231
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (109,263)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (199,800)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (84,529)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (60,915)PPS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (29,016)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (296,161)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,227,423)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (32,094)SGS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (18,333)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (48,265)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (239,903)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (30,838)PPS Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,449,090)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (16,965)TRP Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (14,492)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,123,870)WW Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (448,000)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (24,022,672)
Message 146491 - Posted: 10 Dec 2020 | 18:22:15 UTC - in response to Message 146388.

But surely all users think like I do...


(Trying this again without joking about politics. My bad, sorry...)

I can't even agree with myself most of the time, let alone alone anyone else! :)


Since you asked politely unlike some moderators I could mention (not this forum), I'll re-write mine too.

Do you find that you disagree with your opinion of last year so much that you call people with that opinion you used to have a fool? I know I do.


If you're asking if I change my mind, sure. I don't believe I know everything there is to know, and I'm always looking to educate myself further. So of course I change my opinion.

As for thinking people are fools for not agreeing with me, I've been around the block a few times. Usually when I think someone else is a moron because their opinion is different than mine, it turns out they know something I don't. :)

Maybe you hang around more educated people than me, because most times when I disagree with someone it's because they're factually wrong. For example.... oh, I bet that's banned in here too [rolls eyes].

Peter Hucker
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Posts: 108
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Credit: 31,493,231
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (109,263)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (199,800)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (84,529)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (60,915)PPS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (29,016)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (296,161)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,227,423)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (32,094)SGS LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (18,333)TRP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (48,265)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (239,903)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (30,838)PPS Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,449,090)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (16,965)TRP Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (14,492)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,123,870)WW Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (448,000)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (24,022,672)
Message 146498 - Posted: 10 Dec 2020 | 20:33:57 UTC

Actually, could all Primegrid subprojects be made to work on GPUs? (But it's only been done for those really needing more power). If so, then my original question is irrelevant.

Profile Rick Reynolds
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Discovered 3 mega primesFound 2 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 12 primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,244,909)Cullen LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,194,451)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,174,327)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,754,826)PPS LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (73,178,392)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,151,448)SoB LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,045,557)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (14,871,275)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,860,522)TRP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (11,130,742)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,419,909)321 Sieve (suspended) Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (101,538,236)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (127,922,665)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (30,984,158)PPS Sieve Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (2,840,173,136)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,134,964)TRP Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,013,696)AP 26/27 Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (276,723,135)WW Double Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000,000 credits (1,097,212,000)GFN Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (349,277,565)PSA Double Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000,000 credits (1,370,700,486)
Message 146505 - Posted: 10 Dec 2020 | 23:00:03 UTC - in response to Message 146289.

But surely all users think like I do, they want to do as much useful work as possible. I see no point in wasting my CPU time on something that my GPU (or someone else's GPU if I didn't have one) could do in a fraction of the time.

Having just had time to actually read this statement it really points to a difference of opinion. My opinion is no, not all users think like you do me specifically. I have run on this project now for several years and I make a decision to not run or to run projects. I liken it to tv programs where if I don't like it I change the channel. No one is making me watch it :) While I understand what I think the underlying question is (I could be wrong) the ability for anyone willing to spend their time, resources and certainly money on how they want to is one of the major reasons PG is so well attended. I suppose my question would be why do you oppose this? Because it takes time to get a double check? That's been fixed via some incredible programming for the most part so I am not sure where the issue is. Yes there are some projects that don't have that yet but having done this for a while I can tell you I've been impatient for my task(s) to get validated but that in no way makes me want to ask it to be changed.

I didn't see it asked but why are you running these?

Cheers Rick

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Found 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,029,579)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,842,786)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,009,638)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (661,578)PPS LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (14,065,285)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,255,024)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,912,134)SR5 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (500,512)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,065,013)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,162,752)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,000,471)321 Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,035,186)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,002,647)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (41,345,315)TRP Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (156,305)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,873,194)WW Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,000,000)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (93,185,617)
Message 146520 - Posted: 11 Dec 2020 | 7:12:04 UTC - in response to Message 146280.

Good morning.

If you can't follow this then I'm at a loss on how to educate you further.

I - and probably everyone who has already participated in this thread - can easily follow your idea, but I don't need to be educated just because I don't have the same opinion.

Mentioning opinions:
There are many Boinc users who divide projects into meaningful and not meaningful ones to decide what they run. Different users have different opinions about which is which btw.
If the Boinc universe only was about efficiently doing meaningful science, there'd be no need for credits or badges as users wouldn't need any sort of thank you, being totally driven by sense, and running helpful Boinc projects would be the most sensible thing to do to everyone on this planet who could afford it.
Also, everyone would run everything not time-critical on ARM because ARM is quite energy-efficient compared to Intel and AMD processors.

And, just to be hilarious, everyone would use Macintosh computers running macOS because those have the best user interface and thus, the best user experience. Well, nearly as good a user interface as the MagiC / Jinnee or MiNT / Jinnee combination on old Atari computers. Erm, stating that I have to correct myself: everyone would use upgraded Atari computers running MagiC or MiNT with Jinnee on top to have the best user experience.
And Windows wouldn't even exist because it was so bad in the beginning that everyone would have easily understood just how unreasonable it is to use it.

Well, I'm old enough to have learned that people aren't that sensible, else we wouldn't face wars, starvation, pollution, Windows and people spreading Corona senselessly by dumb behaviour, just to name a few topics that should instantly be solved by sense and education.

Please read humour as humour while excavating the facts, thank you.
____________
Greetings, Jens

92914140^65536+1

Profile Michael GoetzProject donor
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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,227,348)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,624,591)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,021,269)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,145,754)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,751,038)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,197,957)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,718,606)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,963,361)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,118,303)WW Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,132,000)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (77,916,132)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 146533 - Posted: 11 Dec 2020 | 13:12:50 UTC

I think this topic has stayed far enough from the OPs original question (which has been answered) that it's time to shut it down. No more responses.


____________
My lucky number is 75898524288+1

Message boards : Number crunching : Why are GPU-capable subprojects also run on CPUs?

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