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Message boards : Aggie The Pew message board : The Murine Chronometer Trial

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Lord Of The Rats
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Message 132334 - Posted: 25 Aug 2019 | 7:33:34 UTC

So the runners and riders for my chronometer trial

Synchronome

This is not a chronometer. It would be useless on a ship. It is bolted to the spine wall of my house and has a huge pendulum bob. At the time it was made it was one of the standard high precision clocks used by people who couldn't afford the really, really accurate ones like Shortt-Synchronomes. I expect it will do very well unless we get a power cut or Erin unplugs it by mistake when vacuum cleaning.

Hamilton 21

Widely believed to be the best mass produced mechanical chronometer of all time. It cost Uncle Sam USD390 in Jan 45 and he used it until the 70s.

Hamilton 22

In 1942 cost Uncle Sam USD82.50 about USD25 was for the box. I am very interested to see how well it does compared with the Hamilton 21.

Buckney deck watch

Late 19th century deck watch designed to transfer knowledge of the time between the deck and the chronometer room. It came second in a Greenwich Deck Watch trial and hence was bought by the Navy for GBP18 which was then USD90 who kept it until 1922.

Swiss pocket watch

Unsigned but hallmarked 1922. I've been meaning to service it for the last 20 years.

Smiths Deluxe 18 jewel

The high point of English wristwatch volume production.

Wempe Type 904

Early Wempe quartz chronometer with subsidiary seconds and electronics in a separate compartment.

Wempe Type 10057

The current version with centre seconds and integral electronics.

Glashuette Quarz

Late model made just after German reunification.

Seiko QM10

Early Japanese quartz chronometer.

Protocol

The test protocol is basic. All will run for several days before the test itself starts. At about the same time each day the time displayed by each timepiece will be compared with the time reported by time.is. Mechanical devices will be rewound. The procedure will be repeated each day until I decide to stop.

Profile Michael GoetzProject donor
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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de Primes321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,897)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,005,249)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,009,577)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,145,754)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,847,787)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (34,221,148)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,293,415)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,012,222)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,737,347)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,195,123)321 Sieve Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,046,112)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,110,788)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,114,260)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (65,658,157)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,404,447)
Message 132340 - Posted: 25 Aug 2019 | 11:32:23 UTC - in response to Message 132334.

..will be compared with the time reported by time.is.


Might I suggest instead using a standalone GPS receiver, or if you don't have one, any GPS-equipped smartphone as the time source?

Who knows what might distort timing signals over the Internet?

GPS, on the other hand, *requires* microsecond time accuracy to function. Any device capable of showing you where you are using satellite trigonometry must have the correct time.
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Lord Of The Rats
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Message 132341 - Posted: 25 Aug 2019 | 11:40:53 UTC - in response to Message 132340.

A good idea. I'll include a GPS set in as well if I can find it. I was going to tie it to the dog's collar to see how fast she runs and I am not sure where I put it.

Realistically since most of the clocks beat seconds or half seconds I'm unlikely to detect small differences.

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Message 132342 - Posted: 25 Aug 2019 | 12:33:00 UTC - in response to Message 132341.
Last modified: 25 Aug 2019 | 12:33:52 UTC

A good idea. I'll include a GPS set in as well if I can find it. I was going to tie it to the dog's collar to see how fast she runs and I am not sure where I put it.

Realistically since most of the clocks beat seconds or half seconds I'm unlikely to detect small differences.


Internet time sources can have large differences if there's routing problems.

(NTP is a somewhat complicated protocol in part to deal with this problem.)
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Lord Of The Rats
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Message 132343 - Posted: 25 Aug 2019 | 12:51:53 UTC - in response to Message 132342.



Internet time sources can have large differences if there's routing problems.

(NTP is a somewhat complicated protocol in part to deal with this problem.)


Maybe we can pick up an example of that which would be interesting.

Everything is running now. US Naval practice was rate and wind at 1130 and report to the Commanding Officer at 1200. I shall probably attempt to rate and wind at 0700 since I am usually in the house then.

First report therefore hopefully on Tuesday showing rate. First interesting report on Wednesday when we can see if there are changes in rate. (It doesn't matter too much if a clock consistently runs fast or slow. What is more of a problem is if it runs fast one day and slow the next).
























Lord Of The Rats
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321 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (68,843)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (174,782)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (75,592)PPS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (242,059)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (218,748)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (56,248)
Message 132361 - Posted: 26 Aug 2019 | 7:53:00 UTC

And they are off!

Looks like the Royal Navy deck watch has fallen at the first. Either I didn't set it right or it has lost 90 minutes in the last 24 hours.

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Message 132365 - Posted: 26 Aug 2019 | 10:30:20 UTC - in response to Message 132361.

And they are off!

Looks like the Royal Navy deck watch has fallen at the first. Either I didn't set it right or it has lost 90 minutes in the last 24 hours.




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Lord Of The Rats
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Joined: 2 Apr 16
Posts: 1481
ID: 443224
Credit: 836,274
RAC: 5,786
321 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (68,843)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (174,782)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (75,592)PPS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (242,059)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (218,748)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (56,248)
Message 132426 - Posted: 28 Aug 2019 | 7:14:10 UTC

Well we have some initial results. The weather here has been unusual with temperatures of max dry and 31 min 19 and 1019mbar a few days ago contrasting with the current rain and forecast 22/17 and 1012mbar.

The big clock bolted to my spine wall tends not to like these changes. It is believed that the reason for this is that the apparent mass of the pendulum bob changes and this changes natural period of the system. While you'll recall from school days the period of a simple pendulum is independent of pendulum weight this is not quite a simple pendulum. It is easily noticeably when I connect the clock to a proper clock testing system which measures to parts per million but so far in this crude test like the quartz clocks it is apparently keeping perfect time.

I have retired the Royal Navy deck watch. It is too nice to run for extended periods and was not performing well.

I am going to restart the trial with the Smiths wristwatch and Hamilton 22. I may not have noted figures correctly or have done something else as they are not keeping time anywhere near as well as I'd expect.

The Hamilton 21 gained 3s on the first day and 4s on the second. Since the accuracy of my method is probably +/- 1s there is no conclusion yet to be drawn. When new the US Navy would not have accepted it for running so fast but they would have had no objection to the rates differing by 1s/d

The old Swiss pocket watch gained 5s each day which if maintained will be a remarkable performance.

Lord Of The Rats
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321 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (68,843)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (174,782)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (75,592)PPS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (242,059)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (218,748)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (56,248)
Message 132460 - Posted: 29 Aug 2019 | 11:22:45 UTC

I am out of London for most of the day. The electric clocks can look after themselves. I rewound the others and took the rate of the Hamilton 21 which has again gained 4s/d. The Swiss pocket watch rather let itself down by gaining nearly 3 minutes.

Lord Of The Rats
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Joined: 2 Apr 16
Posts: 1481
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Credit: 836,274
RAC: 5,786
321 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (68,843)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (174,782)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (75,592)PPS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (242,059)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (218,748)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (56,248)
Message 132479 - Posted: 30 Aug 2019 | 11:05:54 UTC

The Hamilton 21 gained 3s yesterday. Uncle Sam chose well. It is what is called free sprung which means unlike a usual watch or clock there is no regulator and to adjust timekeeping it is necessary to adjust weights on the balance wheel. The Hamilton service manual tells you exactly what changes to make. It ought to be possible to get the rate down to pretty close to zero but I am not going to try. It is said that these clocks were the really accurate production line clocks. That is not quite true (they needed a bloke called Van in his flat to make a part) but a superb piece of engineering and one which illustrates how US industrial might won WW2.

The Swiss pocket watch gained 24s which is pretty good.

The current plan is to restart the trial with all save the Royal Navy Deck Watch and report weekly.

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Message boards : Aggie The Pew message board : The Murine Chronometer Trial

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