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Message boards : Project Staging Area : New PRPNet Policy on Bad Results

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Michael GoetzProject donor
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Message 95600 - Posted: 8 Jun 2016 | 0:55:51 UTC
Last modified: 8 Jun 2016 | 10:54:46 UTC

In the interest of fairness, we are implementing a new policy for PRPNet projects. If PrimeGrid determines that a participant's computers are returning an excessive numbers of erroneous results, we may, at our discretion, suspend the awarding of PSA BOINC credit for that participant. Since PRPNet work isn't normally double checked, erroneous results currently get full credit. It isn't fair to participants who are returning good results.

It is the responsibility of all participants to insure that their computers are working properly. On BOINC tasks, the results are double checked, and bad results won't get credit. But on PRPNet the results normally are not double checked, and it's very important that everyone makes sure their computers are working properly.

EDIT (6/8/2016): In order to protect the integrity of the work being done, we also reserve the right to take more serious actions, at our discretion, including, but not limited to, prohibiting users from using PRPNet.
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JeppeSNProject donor
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Message 95602 - Posted: 8 Jun 2016 | 10:51:16 UTC

I like the new policy.

I think the policy will have an effect in practice only in some PRPNet projects ("ports"). For projects where random calculation errors (due to hardware problems) typically yield a recognizable result, like 0000000000000000, it will be possible for administrators to identify the problem (and suspend awarding of credit).

However, for some projects, the "result" will typically appear "random", like 6D97B073E098E888, both if calculations took place correctly, and if random hardware errors were present. So in the absence of double-checking, bad computers operating (only) in these projects, can be impossible to identify(?).

/JeppeSN

Michael GoetzProject donor
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321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,169,719)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,254,873)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,048,315)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,183,026)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,175,834)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,881,239)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (42,404,395)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,028,791)
Message 95603 - Posted: 8 Jun 2016 | 11:06:18 UTC - in response to Message 95602.

However, for some projects, the "result" will typically appear "random", like 6D97B073E098E888, both if calculations took place correctly, and if random hardware errors were present. So in the absence of double-checking, bad computers operating (only) in these projects, can be impossible to identify(?).

/JeppeSN


Indeed. I am not at all happy with this scenario. When there's a problem (notice I said "when", not "if"), it's often undetectable. That makes the quality of the results exceptionally suspect. Not only is there some percentage of results that are wrong; you have no idea how large or small the problem is, or even that there is a problem.

It's a big reason why many PRPNet ports have been moved over to BOINC in the last few years. That is a trend that will likely continue.
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Joe O
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Message 95606 - Posted: 8 Jun 2016 | 12:29:47 UTC

Why not just implement double checking on PRPnet?
____________
1437 · 2^495800 + 1

Michael GoetzProject donor
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Joined: 21 Jan 10
Posts: 9611
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Credit: 106,879,612
RAC: 114,131
321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,169,719)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,254,873)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,048,315)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,183,026)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,175,834)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,881,239)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (42,404,395)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,028,791)
Message 95607 - Posted: 8 Jun 2016 | 12:41:49 UTC - in response to Message 95606.

Why not just implement double checking on PRPnet?


In theory it's as easy as changing a single line in the configuration file, but in practice it would create a whole new set of problems. One of the larger problems would be that it would start double checking at the beginning rather than just double checking new work. We would need to wipe the database before turning it on. That's something we'd rather not do.
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Please do not PM me with support questions. They will usually go unanswered. Ask on the forums instead. Thank you!

Joe O
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Message 95612 - Posted: 8 Jun 2016 | 18:11:54 UTC - in response to Message 95607.

start double checking at the beginning rather than just double checking new work.

That might not be a bad idea.

Michael GoetzProject donor
Volunteer moderator
Project scientist
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Joined: 21 Jan 10
Posts: 9611
ID: 53948
Credit: 106,879,612
RAC: 114,131
321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,169,719)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,157,331)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,179,211)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,330,821)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,254,873)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,632,269)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,067,903)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,048,315)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,680,461)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,183,026)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,145,077)321 Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (200,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,085,723)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,175,834)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,881,239)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (42,404,395)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,028,791)
Message 95614 - Posted: 8 Jun 2016 | 20:00:19 UTC - in response to Message 95612.

start double checking at the beginning rather than just double checking new work.

That might not be a bad idea.


It wouldn't be a bad idea at all... on BOINC, where there's a lot more computing power available. In fact, when we move a project from PRPNet to BOINC we tend to do exactly that. On PRPNet, it wouldn't work nearly as well since it would take a few years to catch up. People would lose interest pretty quickly.

We also don't have much -- actually any -- experience with PRPNet double checking. There's a lot of nuances involved in comparing two tasks and it would require a bit of research on our part, and likely numerous changes to PRPNet to get it working exactly the way we want.
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Please do not PM me with support questions. They will usually go unanswered. Ask on the forums instead. Thank you!

Brook HarsteProject donor
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321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,225,775)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,010,955)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,583,970)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,001,226)PPS LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (17,265,820)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,644,354)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,044,110)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,067,525)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,187,354)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,386,027)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,006,943)321 Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,027,534)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (17,370,919)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,014,372)PPS Sieve Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (113,007,263)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,083,315)TRP Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,629,248)AP 26/27 Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,451,688)GFN Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (200,591,903)PSA Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (200,556,062)
Message 95655 - Posted: 9 Jun 2016 | 17:44:42 UTC

We could port everything to BOINC and just use PRPNet for testing and beta work.
Just a thought.
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Message boards : Project Staging Area : New PRPNet Policy on Bad Results

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