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Message boards : Number crunching : Best CPU for LLR/GFN?

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Profile Michael GoetzProject donor
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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,132,712)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,038,114)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,177,890)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,094,541)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,817,335)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,956,186)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,470,298)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,032,821)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,902,645)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (89,917,906)WW Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,024,000)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 73253 - Posted: 7 Feb 2014 | 16:39:36 UTC

I've been pondering whether to build a new development and crunching machine. My old one suffered a hardware failure and is barely running right now.

The question is, what to get?

The obvious answer is the Core i7 4770K. It's reasonably priced, overclockable, supports the latest AVX2 instructions, and is very fast.

But is it the best for us?

They're not nearly as popular, but Intel also makes -E series chips, which are souped up versions of Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge. They have bigger cache and higher memory bandwidth (quad channel vs. dual channel). Since LLR and GFN are limited by memory bandwidth, both the larger cache and quad channel should improve performance.

The last two SR5 mega primes were found by a 6 core Sandy Bridge-E 3930K CPU, which crunches those tasks in about 2.5 hours. That CPU, however, is just under $600 and is almost double the price of a 4770K CPU.

However, there's quad core versions of the -E chips, such as the Ivy Bridge-E 4820K which is a more reasonable $323 and is actually $10 less than the 4770K. Sure, it lacks the AVX2 instructions, but it's not yet clear to me that AVX2 helps all that much. The 4820K has 10 MB of cache vs the 4770K's 8 MB, and uses quad channel memory instead of dual channel. Also, the 4820K's stock clock frequency is 3.7 GHz vs. the 4770K's 3.5 GHz.

What do you think about quad core Haswell vs. quad core IB-E?
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321 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (656,177)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (457,297)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (437,502)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,256,334)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,246,109)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,193,129)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (101,658)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (292,129)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (32,498)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,515,229)AP 26/27 Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,491,867)GFN Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,245,870)PSA Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (101,309)
Message 73256 - Posted: 7 Feb 2014 | 17:15:37 UTC

On paper, 4820K looks the best with the quad channel. OTOH, once you factor in the system cost, the $600 hexacore will give you the best bang for the buck.

You are sitting on one of the largest benchmark databases -- what does it say?

PS:- I'll just leave this here for a quick reference: http://ark.intel.com/compare/77780,77781,75123

Profile Yankton
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321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,013,853)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,132,702)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,050,382)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (103,700)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,841,033)PSP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,385,538)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,003,077)SR5 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,012,684)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,008,554)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,010,677)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,363,845)321 Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (12,787)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (34,485)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,664,063)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (13,679,328)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,013,318)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,171,136)AP 26/27 Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,310,538)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (54,185,199)WW Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (48,000)PSA Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,045,658)
Message 73258 - Posted: 7 Feb 2014 | 17:26:31 UTC - in response to Message 73256.

I believe the haswells perform avx faster, maybe someone with both chips can chime in on that. From personal experience though - the 4770k is overclockable BUT running avx causes the voltage it wants and temps it makes to run through the roof for anything but a very modest overclock. I would guess other haswell k series are similar. I'd save the $20 and just get the 4771. Or a hexcore as axn suggests.

Profile Michael GoetzProject donor
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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,132,712)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,038,114)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,177,890)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,094,541)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,817,335)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,956,186)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,470,298)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,032,821)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,902,645)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (89,917,906)WW Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,024,000)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 73264 - Posted: 7 Feb 2014 | 18:11:16 UTC - in response to Message 73256.

On paper, 4820K looks the best with the quad channel. OTOH, once you factor in the system cost, the $600 hexacore will give you the best bang for the buck.

You are sitting on one of the largest benchmark databases -- what does it say?

PS:- I'll just leave this here for a quick reference: http://ark.intel.com/compare/77780,77781,75123


The problem with the "cheap" hex core 4930K is that it has 12 MB of cache vs the quad's 10 MB, so you're deceasing the cache per core from 2.5 MB to 2 MB. There is a version of the IB-E with 15 MB cache (i.e., 2.5 MB per core) but that's the "Core i7 Extreme" 4960K which is a $1000K CPU. The 4960K is also clocked lower than the 4820K. (3.6 GHz vs 3.7 GHz)

With LLR being memory bandwidth limited, would you really get more throughput with the 6 core 12 MB cache 4930K or even the 6 core 15 MB cache 4960K? It's hard to say without testing.

Yes, I have a big database, but I'll bet(*) there aren't a lot of SB-E and IB-E in there. Furthermore, BOINC doesn't tell us what the actual clock rate of the CPU is (and you can bet almost none of these are running at stock clocks). Also, the memory speed and type and probably the motherboard will have an effect on speed.

So what you really want to do is test all the CPUs in the same motherboard, with the same memory. That's an expensive test.

*Update: I'd lose that bet. The SB-E and IB-E 6-core, 12 MB cache i7 CPUs in the $600 price range are actually pretty popular. Also, I'm not including the many SB-E and IB-E Xeon CPUs in that count.
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Profile Gary Craig
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Discovered 1 mega prime321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,893,273)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,440,687)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,738,876)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,292,626)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,648,951)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,653,927)SoB LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,558,341)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,748,705)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,335,713)TRP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,602,818)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,282,622)321 Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (740,566)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (59,788,598)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,143,068)PPS Sieve Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (524,673,938)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,130,821)TRP Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,074,710)AP 26/27 Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (43,842,888)GFN Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (224,648,943)PSA Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (62,378,755)
Message 73265 - Posted: 7 Feb 2014 | 18:11:29 UTC

I have a 2600K and a 3770K. They are o/c'd identically, and the other standard specs (e.g. cache size) and environment (e.g. memory clock, 2-channel, operating system) are the same. For the smaller tests (ppse/pps/sgs) the 3770K is faster by a small amount. For all larger tests, the 2600K is faster, and the ratio grows as the tasks get larger. I believe this is due to the change in the cache replacement algorithm between SB and IB.

Correspondingly, the 3770K runs cooler, although that case has better airflow as well.

I can't comment on haswell; I don't have one.

Just my 2-bit observation :-)

--Gary

Profile Michael GoetzProject donor
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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,132,712)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,038,114)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,177,890)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,094,541)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,817,335)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,956,186)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,470,298)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,032,821)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,902,645)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (89,917,906)WW Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,024,000)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 73266 - Posted: 7 Feb 2014 | 18:41:42 UTC

Here's what I mean about the database not being too useful for figuring out what's better. One thing I forgot to mention is that some people run their i7 with HT on and some run with HT off. Here's the average CPU time for completed and validated SR5 tasks, by CPU:

+-------+---------+----------+ | cpu | seconds | count(*) | +-------+---------+----------+ | 2700K | 13,297 | 660 | SB 4 cores 8 MB | 3770K | 8,896 | 2557 | IB 4 cores 8 MB | 3820 | 13,666 | 445 | SB-E 4 cores 10 MB | 3930K | 11,128 | 3640 | SB-E 6 cores 12 MB | 3960K | NULL | 0 | SB-E 6 cores 15 MB | 3970K | NULL | 0 | SB-E 6 cores 15 MB | 4770K | 12,921 | 1393 | Haswell 4 cores 8 MB | 4820K | 20,915 | 12 | IB-E 4 cores 10 MB | 4930K | 7,778 | 779 | IB-E 6 cores 12 MB +-------+---------+----------+


It's hard to draw any conclusions from the data because obviously the raw numbers don't reflect actual CPU speed.
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Discovered 1 mega primeFound 2 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,010,094)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,022,806)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,657,625)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,251,083)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (25,288,425)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,182,638)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,923,035)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,061,736)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,139,194)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (19,376)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,520,745)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,021,413)321 Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,915,071)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,584,236)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,461,309)PPS Sieve Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (94,299,014)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (352,129)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (776,202)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,368,553)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,322,194)WW Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,964,000)PSA Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,154,617)
Message 73268 - Posted: 7 Feb 2014 | 19:50:32 UTC - in response to Message 73266.
Last modified: 7 Feb 2014 | 19:51:15 UTC

Can you look in the database for non-K i5 systems that can't be overclocked or hyperthreaded?

I'm trying to hold out for a Broadwell processor with Iris Pro graphics, and thus the 128MB on-package cache. Come to think of it, there are laptop CPUs with Iris Pro graphics now, although they're expensive and they might fry themselves running GWNums-based code 24/7.
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Discovered 1 mega primeEliminated 1 conjecture "k"Discovered 1 twin prime321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,014,405)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,681,452)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,421,149)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,267,839)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,194,419)PSP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,783,817)SoB LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (13,332,361)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,248,659)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,878,856)TRP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (11,153,506)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,400,237)321 Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,000,576)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,000,977)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,843,367)PPS Sieve Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (80,183,646)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,473,750)TRP Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,243,608)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,535,426)GFN Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (392,899,570)WW Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (353,120,000)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,042,125)
Message 73271 - Posted: 7 Feb 2014 | 21:25:03 UTC

I have a 3770 and a 4770. My 3770 is out performing the 4770 on anything AVX related. If it's non-AVX, then the 4770 beats it. They are both Windows machines, the 3770 is on W7, the 4770 is on @8.1, so I am unsure if the OS is causing some of the issues. I had planned on downgrading the W8.1 as I have issues with the OS in other places.

The 3770 has been a little more temperamental than the 4770. I have to reboot it more often (every 7-10 days) where the 4770 can go over 14 days without any issues.

The BOINC benchmarking on the two is negligible in the floating point, but the 4770 is about 15-18% faster.

That is just my observations, and your mileage may very, but the machines are created similar. A little less memory and a newer version of video card on the 4770.

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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,132,712)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,038,114)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,177,890)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,094,541)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,817,335)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,956,186)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,470,298)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,032,821)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,902,645)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (89,917,906)WW Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,024,000)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 73274 - Posted: 7 Feb 2014 | 21:45:03 UTC - in response to Message 73268.
Last modified: 7 Feb 2014 | 21:48:45 UTC

Can you look in the database for non-K i5 systems that can't be overclocked or hyperthreaded?

I'm trying to hold out for a Broadwell processor with Iris Pro graphics, and thus the 128MB on-package cache. Come to think of it, there are laptop CPUs with Iris Pro graphics now, although they're expensive and they might fry themselves running GWNums-based code 24/7.


The i5s with Iris Pro graphics are the 4670R and 4570R. At the present time there's no validated results from any host with those CPUs.

Looking at regular i5s, I'll compare the 4670 (Haswell), 3570 (Ivy Bridge), and 2500 (Sandy Bridge).

SGS:
+------+---------+----------+ | cpu | seconds | count(*) | +------+---------+----------+ | 2500 | 1,001 | 2753 | | 3570 | 827 | 1647 | | 4670 | 699 | 1446 | +------+---------+----------+


SR5:
+------+---------+----------+ | cpu | seconds | count(*) | +------+---------+----------+ | 2500 | 9,093 | 1138 | | 3570 | 9,272 | 135 | | 4670 | 8,086 | 257 | +------+---------+----------+


SoB:
+------+---------+----------+ | cpu | seconds | count(*) | +------+---------+----------+ | 2500 | 386,065 | 118 | | 3570 | 318,689 | 94 | | 4670 | 289,226 | 36 | +------+---------+----------+


The SR5 Ivy Bridge results seem out of line, but it's a small sample set.
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Discovered 1 mega primeFound 2 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,010,094)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,022,806)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,657,625)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,251,083)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (25,288,425)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,182,638)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,923,035)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,061,736)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,139,194)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (19,376)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,520,745)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,021,413)321 Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,915,071)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,584,236)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,461,309)PPS Sieve Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (94,299,014)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (352,129)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (776,202)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,368,553)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,322,194)WW Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,964,000)PSA Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,154,617)
Message 73277 - Posted: 8 Feb 2014 | 0:49:03 UTC - in response to Message 73274.

Technically, there's a small amount of overclocking possible with the 2500 and 3570: 4 bins. That doesn't count the possibility of the mobo allowing all cores to turbo - some do. Given that, I find the performance of Haswell impressive. But it does look like the memory bandwidth on IB-E probably beats it.

On the other hand, also remember that the 4670K, overclockable without HT, is $230 at Amazon; less at a Micro Center store if you have one nearby. And LGA2011 mobos are at least $50 more than LGA115x.
____________

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PPS Sieve Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (76,899,252)PSA Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (101,642)
Message 73279 - Posted: 8 Feb 2014 | 1:39:24 UTC - in response to Message 73277.

One thing you guys are forgetting, i5-4670 is AVX 2.0 compatible. Soon George will release gwnum 28.4 with this ability.
____________

axn
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Credit: 28,027,106
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321 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (656,177)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (457,297)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (437,502)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,256,334)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,246,109)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,193,129)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (101,658)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (292,129)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (32,498)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,515,229)AP 26/27 Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,491,867)GFN Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,245,870)PSA Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (101,309)
Message 73280 - Posted: 8 Feb 2014 | 3:12:47 UTC - in response to Message 73266.

Here's what I mean about the database not being too useful for figuring out what's better. One thing I forgot to mention is that some people run their i7 with HT on and some run with HT off. Here's the average CPU time for completed and validated SR5 tasks, by CPU:.

Can you try to bin by time taken as well -- I mean, take the time in buckets of 2000secs and then calculate the count/average for each bucket?

If you can post the raw data in csv format (after suitable anonymisation), I'm sure we can do more detailed analysis. At the end of the day, we don't need a perfect result. We just need to know if there is significant difference between the CPUs.

Profile Michael GoetzProject donor
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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,132,712)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,038,114)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,177,890)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,094,541)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,817,335)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,956,186)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,470,298)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,032,821)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,902,645)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (89,917,906)WW Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,024,000)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 73282 - Posted: 8 Feb 2014 | 4:30:30 UTC

If I get some time I'll try to see if I can find a pattern in the noise.

One must understand that the database is not intended to be an MIS system and generating statistics is not its purpose. The information necessary for this kind of analysis is not stored permanently -- anywhere -- and therefore our sample size is rather small by definition.
____________
My lucky number is 75898524288+1

Michael Millerick
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Discovered 1 mega primeFound 3 primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,023,600)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,016,794)ESP LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,186,009)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,224,466)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,020,696)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,043,852)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,031,453)SR5 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,775,333)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,035,177)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,740,707)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,046,592)321 Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,440,175)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,911,344)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,077,092)PPS Sieve Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,200,870)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,034,014)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,070,774)AP 26/27 Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,591,723)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (108,871,723)WW Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,104,000)PSA Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (52,866,806)
Message 73284 - Posted: 8 Feb 2014 | 7:08:14 UTC - in response to Message 73279.

One thing you guys are forgetting, i5-4670 is AVX 2.0 compatible. Soon George will release gwnum 28.4 with this ability.

Do we have any idea just how much AVX 2.0 will boost the performance of gwnum? Will it be as good as the difference AVX made?
____________

axn
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Credit: 28,027,106
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321 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (656,177)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (457,297)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (437,502)PPS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,256,334)SoB LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,246,109)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,193,129)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (101,658)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (292,129)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (32,498)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,515,229)AP 26/27 Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,491,867)GFN Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,245,870)PSA Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (101,309)
Message 73285 - Posted: 8 Feb 2014 | 8:42:59 UTC - in response to Message 73284.

Do we have any idea just how much AVX 2.0 will boost the performance of gwnum? Will it be as good as the difference AVX made?

Hardly. < 5% (and that is being generous).

Profile Michael GoetzProject donor
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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,132,712)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,038,114)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,177,890)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,094,541)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,817,335)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,956,186)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,470,298)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,032,821)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,902,645)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (89,917,906)WW Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,024,000)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 73287 - Posted: 8 Feb 2014 | 12:20:16 UTC - in response to Message 73284.

One thing you guys are forgetting, i5-4670 is AVX 2.0 compatible. Soon George will release gwnum 28.4 with this ability.

Do we have any idea just how much AVX 2.0 will boost the performance of gwnum? Will it be as good as the difference AVX made?


What axn said. It doesn't look like it's going to be a significant improvement.

Mostly that's because AVX2 primarily is an improvement to integer math, which doesn't help us. The one AVX2 instruction that is useful only provides a modest improvement, and even that won't meet its theoretical potential because we're limited by memory bandwidth now rather than CPU speed.

Bottom line, definitely don't spend $300 to replace your 3770K with a 4770K. At least not just for AVX2. Haswell might be faster on its own, but AVX2 isn't going to make a large difference. It might not even be noticeable.
____________
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Discovered 1 mega prime321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,038,739)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,074,615)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,243,517)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,142,353)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,292,925)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,232,103)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,934,612)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,057,332)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,231,028)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,420,063)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,014,811)321 Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,770,672)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (944,431)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,813,253)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (342,048,709)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,446,797)AP 26/27 Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (33,140,471)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (49,651,200)WW Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,792,000)PSA Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,457,430)
Message 73288 - Posted: 8 Feb 2014 | 13:06:54 UTC - in response to Message 73287.

One thing you guys are forgetting, i5-4670 is AVX 2.0 compatible. Soon George will release gwnum 28.4 with this ability.

Do we have any idea just how much AVX 2.0 will boost the performance of gwnum? Will it be as good as the difference AVX made?


What axn said. It doesn't look like it's going to be a significant improvement.

Mostly that's because AVX2 primarily is an improvement to integer math, which doesn't help us. The one AVX2 instruction that is useful only provides a modest improvement, and even that won't meet its theoretical potential because we're limited by memory bandwidth now rather than CPU speed.

Bottom line, definitely don't spend $300 to replace your 3770K with a 4770K. At least not just for AVX2. Haswell might be faster on its own, but AVX2 isn't going to make a large difference. It might not even be noticeable.


BUT since pc's are not bought today and thrown away tomorrow what you buy today must also work for the next 5 years, right?! So since PG is going the avx path, which presumably will get optimized giving even better performance, getting a cpu now with that capability may make more sense for the units you will want to crunch in 3 or 4 years from now. Unless of course you are one of those people that upgrades the cpu every few years. But that opens a whole new can of worms, which motherboard do you buy that can handle both kinds, the cheaper one now and the more expensive ones later on.

My advice would be to go to a 'production meeting' where they talk about the 'future' of PG crunching, and then base your decision on how long you think it will be before you replace this new pc and the direction they are currently thinking of going in their processing. If the avx crunching is still 10 years away and for you that is 2 pc's away then skip it and save the money, but if the avx crunching is close then consider it and the units it crunches and whether or not you will want to crunch them too. Remember just because you can, doesn't mean you have to. My SandyBridge laptop CAN use the cpu to crunch, but I choose not to, you can choose not to go the avx route this time and instead do it next time, when the software is better optimized for the cpu. It all depends on the folks upstairs and the path they are on.

Profile Michael GoetzProject donor
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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,132,712)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,038,114)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,177,890)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,094,541)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,817,335)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,956,186)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,470,298)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,032,821)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,902,645)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (89,917,906)WW Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,024,000)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 73291 - Posted: 8 Feb 2014 | 15:54:23 UTC - in response to Message 73288.
Last modified: 8 Feb 2014 | 15:54:45 UTC

Bottom line, definitely don't spend $300 to replace your 3770K with a 4770K. At least not just for AVX2. Haswell might be faster on its own, but AVX2 isn't going to make a large difference. It might not even be noticeable.


BUT since pc's are not bought today and thrown away tomorrow what you buy today must also work for the next 5 years, right?! So since PG is going the avx path, which presumably will get optimized giving even better performance, getting a cpu now with that capability may make more sense for the units you will want to crunch in 3 or 4 years from now. Unless of course you are one of those people that upgrades the cpu every few years. But that opens a whole new can of worms, which motherboard do you buy that can handle both kinds, the cheaper one now and the more expensive ones later on.


Huh? Now I'm very confused. (Or, more bluntly and less politely, I think you're very confused.) What you wrote makes no sense in the context of the message you were replying to.

You said "AVX", yet the context was replacing an Ivy Bridge CPU (which has AVX) with a Haswell CPU (which also has AVX). Nobody is disputing the value of AVX.

What I was saying was that AVX2 is not very useful. And probably never will be. The AVX2 instruction set, for the most part, is of no use to us, and the one instruction that is useful doesn't provide a significant benefit. It's not a game changer. It's barely noticeable above the background noise, to be honest. That's unlikely to change. Anyone who was expecting a big improvement from an "AVX2 optimized app" wasn't well informed on the nature of AVX2.

There are other improvements in Haswell, but AVX2 isn't a big deal, and never will be.
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Ken_g6Project donor
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Discovered 1 mega primeFound 2 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,010,094)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,022,806)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,657,625)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,251,083)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (25,288,425)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,182,638)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,923,035)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,061,736)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,139,194)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (19,376)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,520,745)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,021,413)321 Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,915,071)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,584,236)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,461,309)PPS Sieve Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (94,299,014)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (352,129)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (776,202)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,368,553)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (38,322,194)WW Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,964,000)PSA Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,154,617)
Message 73292 - Posted: 8 Feb 2014 | 17:49:53 UTC

As far as Haswell goes, what matters is not AVX2, but FMA. (That's Fused (floating-point) Multiply-Add.) The good news is that FMA is very helpful in primality testing. The bad news is that, in order to add the FMA path, Intel decided to drop one of its floating-point adders. And apparently floating-point adders are also important in primality testing. So some adds may have to be replaced with FMA (multiplying by 1) for Haswell. Given that, I'm surprised Haswell is working as well as it is now. I would guess, from the 28.3 thread, that Haswell might improve by 8% or so with the next LLR.

One more thing: PPS Sieve could be made to take advantage of AVX2. In theory, going from SSE2 to AVX2 just means going from working with two 64-bit numbers at a time to four. However, PPS Sieve also uses the FPU stack to store six 62-bit numbers (in 80-bit FPU registers). Six is divisible by two, but not by four. I have considered rewriting the PPS Sieve app to take advantage of AVX2, but it would be a complete rewrite of the main algorithm. And since GPUs are so much better at PPS Sieve, I don't really want to bother.
____________

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Discovered 1 mega prime321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,038,739)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,074,615)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,243,517)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,142,353)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,292,925)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,232,103)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,934,612)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,057,332)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,231,028)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,420,063)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,014,811)321 Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,770,672)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (944,431)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,813,253)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (342,048,709)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,446,797)AP 26/27 Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (33,140,471)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (49,651,200)WW Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,792,000)PSA Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,457,430)
Message 73314 - Posted: 9 Feb 2014 | 12:32:20 UTC - in response to Message 73291.
Last modified: 9 Feb 2014 | 12:34:26 UTC

Bottom line, definitely don't spend $300 to replace your 3770K with a 4770K. At least not just for AVX2. Haswell might be faster on its own, but AVX2 isn't going to make a large difference. It might not even be noticeable.


BUT since pc's are not bought today and thrown away tomorrow what you buy today must also work for the next 5 years, right?! So since PG is going the avx path, which presumably will get optimized giving even better performance, getting a cpu now with that capability may make more sense for the units you will want to crunch in 3 or 4 years from now. Unless of course you are one of those people that upgrades the cpu every few years. But that opens a whole new can of worms, which motherboard do you buy that can handle both kinds, the cheaper one now and the more expensive ones later on.


Huh? Now I'm very confused. (Or, more bluntly and less politely, I think you're very confused.) What you wrote makes no sense in the context of the message you were replying to.

You said "AVX", yet the context was replacing an Ivy Bridge CPU (which has AVX) with a Haswell CPU (which also has AVX). Nobody is disputing the value of AVX.

What I was saying was that AVX2 is not very useful. And probably never will be. The AVX2 instruction set, for the most part, is of no use to us, and the one instruction that is useful doesn't provide a significant benefit. It's not a game changer. It's barely noticeable above the background noise, to be honest. That's unlikely to change. Anyone who was expecting a big improvement from an "AVX2 optimized app" wasn't well informed on the nature of AVX2.

There are other improvements in Haswell, but AVX2 isn't a big deal, and never will be.


Yeah obviously I left the (2) off my post, I can see how that would confuse some people, I am glad you deciphered my meaning though.

My point was that listening to the future of where PG is going, which us regular crunchers do not normally have access too, may help you pick the best choice for you. I of course have no idea if you are an 'insider' but am guessing so by the titles under your name on each post.

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Discovered 1 mega prime321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,038,739)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,074,615)ESP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,243,517)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,142,353)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,292,925)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,232,103)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,934,612)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,057,332)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,231,028)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,420,063)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,014,811)321 Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,770,672)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (944,431)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,813,253)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (342,048,709)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,446,797)AP 26/27 Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (33,140,471)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (49,651,200)WW Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,792,000)PSA Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,457,430)
Message 73315 - Posted: 9 Feb 2014 | 12:35:03 UTC - in response to Message 73292.

As far as Haswell goes, what matters is not AVX2, but FMA. (That's Fused (floating-point) Multiply-Add.) The good news is that FMA is very helpful in primality testing. The bad news is that, in order to add the FMA path, Intel decided to drop one of its floating-point adders. And apparently floating-point adders are also important in primality testing. So some adds may have to be replaced with FMA (multiplying by 1) for Haswell. Given that, I'm surprised Haswell is working as well as it is now. I would guess, from the 28.3 thread, that Haswell might improve by 8% or so with the next LLR.

One more thing: PPS Sieve could be made to take advantage of AVX2. In theory, going from SSE2 to AVX2 just means going from working with two 64-bit numbers at a time to four. However, PPS Sieve also uses the FPU stack to store six 62-bit numbers (in 80-bit FPU registers). Six is divisible by two, but not by four. I have considered rewriting the PPS Sieve app to take advantage of AVX2, but it would be a complete rewrite of the main algorithm. And since GPUs are so much better at PPS Sieve, I don't really want to bother.


COOL insights!
Thanks

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Message 73364 - Posted: 10 Feb 2014 | 17:15:33 UTC

The effects of the quad-channel memory become more important for IB-E or IV-E.

I run SR5 with 4960x@stock(IV-E).
When all 6 cores are running, the turbo-boost technology sets the frequency of the 4960x to 3.7GHz.
And I select 1333cl9 for memory clock, because my memory module does not have 1600 in XMP.

The result is :

4960x(3.7GHz,1333cl9, Core 6, HT off)
dual-channel 3.5hours 85W (http://www.primegrid.com/result.php?resultid=523564454)
quad-channel 2.3hours 95W (http://www.primegrid.com/result.php?resultid=523629619)

The watt of the CPU is measured by HWINFO64. The lower watt means a memory starvation.

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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,132,712)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,038,114)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,177,890)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,094,541)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,817,335)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,956,186)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,470,298)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,032,821)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,902,645)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (89,917,906)WW Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,024,000)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 73370 - Posted: 10 Feb 2014 | 19:23:38 UTC - in response to Message 73364.

The effects of the quad-channel memory become more important for IB-E or IV-E.

I run SR5 with 4960x@stock(IV-E).
When all 6 cores are running, the turbo-boost technology sets the frequency of the 4960x to 3.7GHz.
And I select 1333cl9 for memory clock, because my memory module does not have 1600 in XMP.

The result is :

4960x(3.7GHz,1333cl9, Core 6, HT off)
dual-channel 3.5hours 85W (http://www.primegrid.com/result.php?resultid=523564454)
quad-channel 2.3hours 95W (http://www.primegrid.com/result.php?resultid=523629619)

The watt of the CPU is measured by HWINFO64. The lower watt means a memory starvation.


That's very useful information, thank you. That's quite a difference between the dual channel and quad channel times.


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321 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (73,438)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,546,573)SoB LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (293,716,558)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,685,924)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (102,618)TRP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (19,352,438)PPS Sieve Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (788,814)AP 26/27 Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (206,193)GFN Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (2,393,205,779)
Message 73390 - Posted: 11 Feb 2014 | 1:57:50 UTC

I run SR5 with memory overclocking to 2400cl9.

4960x(3.7GHz, Core 6, HT off)
dual-channel(1333) 3.5hours 85W (http://www.primegrid.com/result.php?resultid=523564454)
quad-channel(1333) 2.3hours 95W (http://www.primegrid.com/result.php?resultid=523629619)
quad-channel(2400) 2.2hours 96W (http://www.primegrid.com/result.php?resultid=523689530)

For current SR5, I conclude that if we use 6 core with stock clock, we must use the quad-channel, and further memory OC is less important.

For a large FFT or CPU overclocking, the memory OC may become imporant.

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321 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (73,438)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,546,573)SoB LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (293,716,558)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,685,924)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (102,618)TRP LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (19,352,438)PPS Sieve Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (788,814)AP 26/27 Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (206,193)GFN Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (2,393,205,779)
Message 73395 - Posted: 11 Feb 2014 | 6:58:06 UTC

For comparison, I disable 2 cores of 4960x in BIOS to make 4-core system because I don't have 4-core CPU.
The size of L3 cache is diffrent from that of a genuine 4-core sytem.

4960x(3.7GHz, Core 4, HT off)
dual-channel(1333) 2.1hours 65W (http://www.primegrid.com/result.php?resultid=523720913)
quad-channel(1333) 2.1hours 70W (http://www.primegrid.com/result.php?resultid=523762116)


In conclusion,

4960x(3.7GHz, Core 6, HT off)
dual-channel(1333) 3.5hours ; 6.9WU/day * 6Core = 41.4WU
quad-channel(1333) 2.3hours ; 10.4WU/day * 6Core = 62.4WU
quad-channel(2400) 2.2hours ; 10.9WU/day * 6Core = 65.4WU

4960x(3.7GHz, Core 4, HT off)
dual-channel(1333) 2.1hours ; 11.4WU/day * 4Core = 45.7WU
quad-channel(1333) 2.1hours ; 11.4WU/day * 4Core = 45.7WU

The bandwidth of dual-channel memory is exhausted by 4 core.
The productivity for 6 core with dual-channel memory is about same as that for 4 core.
Moreover, quad-channel memory for 4-core system is less important.

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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,132,712)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,038,114)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,177,890)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,094,541)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,817,335)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,956,186)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,470,298)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,032,821)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,902,645)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (89,917,906)WW Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,024,000)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 73398 - Posted: 11 Feb 2014 | 7:31:18 UTC - in response to Message 73395.

For comparison, I disable 2 cores of 4960x in BIOS to make 4-core system because I don't have 4-core CPU.
The size of L3 cache is diffrent from that of a genuine 4-core sytem.

...

The bandwidth of dual-channel memory is exhausted by 4 core.
The productivity for 6 core with dual-channel memory is about same as that for 4 core.
Moreover, quad-channel memory for 4-core system is less important.



I'm not so sure that's correct. The 4960X has a 15MB L3 cache while the 4770K has an 8MB L3 cache. With the smaller L3 cache on the non-E series Haswell or Ivy Bridge CPUs, the impact of dual channel vs. quad channel memory might be more significant.

It would be interesting to see this dual vs. quad test with a 4820 (quad core IB-E with 10 MB L3 cache) which is much closer to the 8 MB cache on Haswell or IB.

On the other hand, if the cache doesn't matter and dual channel is indeed sufficient for 4 cores, there's no pressing reason to go with a 4820K over a 4770K.
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Message 73400 - Posted: 11 Feb 2014 | 7:58:04 UTC

Larger FFTs will stress the memory more. So quad channel will be future proof.

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Message 73643 - Posted: 19 Feb 2014 | 21:16:09 UTC

As AVX2 isn't a significant boost for LLR and GFN, would it be reasonable to hope that AVX-512 might be? It seems they are doubling the floating point register size again with that instruction set. There are other additions as well.

Unfortunately the info I can find is that this advance won't show up until 2016, at least in consumer-grade CPUs (i.e. i7-ish; Xeon maybe earlier).

--Gary

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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 1 mega primeFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de Primes321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,132,712)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,038,114)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,177,890)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,094,541)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,817,335)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,956,186)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,470,298)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,032,821)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,902,645)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (89,917,906)WW Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (50,024,000)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 73646 - Posted: 20 Feb 2014 | 0:18:31 UTC - in response to Message 73643.

As AVX2 isn't a significant boost for LLR and GFN, would it be reasonable to hope that AVX-512 might be? It seems they are doubling the floating point register size again with that instruction set. There are other additions as well.

Unfortunately the info I can find is that this advance won't show up until 2016, at least in consumer-grade CPUs (i.e. i7-ish; Xeon maybe earlier).

--Gary


I would think AVX-512 could have the same sort of impact as AVX did, although it might simply exacerbate the current problems with memory bandwidth, A better place to ask would be the Mersenne forums. I'm sure George has his opinion, and, frankly, I value his opinion on this matter more than everyone else's combined.
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Message 74083 - Posted: 5 Mar 2014 | 13:21:50 UTC - in response to Message 73279.

One thing you guys are forgetting, i5-4670 is AVX 2.0 compatible. Soon George will release gwnum 28.4 with this ability.


I was right:

http://www.primegrid.com/forum_thread.php?id=5557

Take care.

Carlos

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Message boards : Number crunching : Best CPU for LLR/GFN?

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