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Generalized Fermat Prime Search :
Clarification on task purposes
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So, a little while ago, I started to put a bit of work into this subproject. I wanted to run the "world record" search, but keep getting computation errors during (whenever the task has to be paused, then resumed; but it happens randomly).
At any rate, I found it silly to attempt to run world record searches and have them keep failing on me after a long time. Instead I've been running short tasks, in hope that it contributes to the same effort.
My question is then: what purpose do each tasks have? Do the short tasks, as well as the long "world record" tasks, assist in the search for a new Fermat Prime?
Thanks! | |
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Yes they do both look for GFN primes. The difference is in the length of the primes. The world record units are looking for primes over 13M digits, whereas the short units are looking for much smaller primes. "Only" about 2.5M digits, so still way up there in the top 5000 world wide but comparatively small ;)
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PrimeGrid Challenge Overall standings --- Last update: From Pi to Paddy (2016)
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Michael Goetz Volunteer moderator Project administrator
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Joined: 21 Jan 10 Posts: 14037 ID: 53948 Credit: 477,051,011 RAC: 285,770
                               
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Short WUs:
If a prime is found on a Short WU, it will be a new world record for a GFN, replacing the one in my signature, will be no worse than the 13th largest prime of any type ever found, and would most likely be 11th or 12th overall. Short WUs have an exponent of 524288 (2^19).
The purpose of the Short WU project is to 1) Find a new, largest GFN, 2) Find a prime at N=534288 in BOINC, and 3) provide a BOINC GFN project where CPUs can particpate.
LONG WUs:
If a prime is found on a Long WU, it will be a much larger number. Except for some of the very first (and therefore smallest) of these WUs, any prime that is found will be the largest prime ever found, of any type. Of the approximately 110 thousand candidates to be searched, the first 289 are smaller than the current largest known prime, and all the rest would set a new record. The current leading edge of the Long WUs is over 14 million digits long, and is about a million digits longer than the current world record. Long WUs have an exponent of 4194304 (2^22).
The purpose of the Long WUs is simple, and is the driving force behind the effort to bring GFN searching to BOINC: We're looking for the largest prime number ever found.
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My lucky number is 75898524288+1 | |
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Michael Goetz Volunteer moderator Project administrator
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Joined: 21 Jan 10 Posts: 14037 ID: 53948 Credit: 477,051,011 RAC: 285,770
                               
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So, a little while ago, I started to put a bit of work into this subproject. I wanted to run the "world record" search, but keep getting computation errors during (whenever the task has to be paused, then resumed; but it happens randomly).
At any rate, I found it silly to attempt to run world record searches and have them keep failing on me after a long time.
I wanted to respond to this separately because it's not really what you were asking. Indeed, there's nothing worse than having a task fail after a lot of crunching.
In your particular case, the card you're using, a GTX 550 Ti is "special", and not in a good way. You're actually one of the lucky ones in that you're able to complete the short WUs without errors. Lots of 550 Ti's can't even complete the short WUs.
What we know is this: It's a hardware fault brought on by a combination of clock speed and temperature. That yours is working better than other 550 Ti's is perhaps due to your card running in a cooler environment. This problem actually affects all Nvidia GPUs when they're overclocked too high, and for GFN, "too high" is not very high at all. The GTX 550 Ti comes from the factory with very high clock speeds, and these stock clock speeds are often too high and people get the same failures with the 550 Ti at stock speeds as they do with other GPUs at overclocked speeds.
Other people with 550 Ti's have had success by lowering the memory clock below stock clock speeds. On the sieve projects, it was noticed that they could lower power consumption and heat by lowering the memory clock. Perhaps it's the lower temperature, caused by the slower memory clock, that allows the 550 Ti to work correctly. We're really not sure, but it does seem to work.
So if you want to try it, you could lower the memory clock and see what happens. There's a whole long thread here (and also, I believe, in the Project Staging Area topic) discussing the problem with the 550 Ti. The bottom line is that lowering the memory clock helps.
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My lucky number is 75898524288+1 | |
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Well, well. Thank you both for the detailed replies.
As for the details on my GPU, I have heard of that issue before. It's interesting, though, because it's only ever failed on world record GFN searches (I would have to check my history, but I'm 95% sure about that). I've been running PPS sieves and short GFN units just fine. (Not to mention the use it has had in other projects).
On the subject of a cooler environment, that is possible. However, I'm not even using any liquid cooling on the card (I ditched my last system because it almost killed that very card when it leaked..). The temperature tends to max at about 75C.
I'll take a peek at my clock speeds under nTune and see what I can do. I read somewhere on the forum that a memory clock of 1700mhz is the magic number.
Thank you! | |
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Michael Goetz Volunteer moderator Project administrator
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Joined: 21 Jan 10 Posts: 14037 ID: 53948 Credit: 477,051,011 RAC: 285,770
                               
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As for the details on my GPU, I have heard of that issue before. It's interesting, though, because it's only ever failed on world record GFN searches (I would have to check my history, but I'm 95% sure about that). I've been running PPS sieves and short GFN units just fine. (Not to mention the use it has had in other projects).
Genefer uses different circuitry on the GPU than the sieves do, so its behavior is very different with regards to overclocking. You could run for years and never have an error on a sieve, and fail running Genefer within seconds.
As I said, yours seems better than most 550 Ti's, for whatever reason, and *almost* runs Genefer without error. So you've managed to run a bunch of short WUs, but failed at two (I think) long WUs -- that's not unexpected, considering the Long WUs take 40 times as long to run as the short WUs. I suspect if you ran 40 short WUs, a few would fail.
In any event, since your card is only marginally affected by the problem, there's a good chance that lowering the memory clock will enhance stability.
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My lucky number is 75898524288+1 | |
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As of now I lowered the memory clock to 1900mhz.
Thanks for the second clarification.
I did want to note that my card is (likely) less affected because the factory overclocking was rather low (It's Gigabyte brand, as oppose to EVGA). So that reason, alone, could be why I was still able to run some of the short tasks.
I'll try to get a world record task and see if it can run well. I just hope to not end up failing the task at a late percent (The farthest the card has run for is ~40%). | |
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Michael Goetz Volunteer moderator Project administrator
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Joined: 21 Jan 10 Posts: 14037 ID: 53948 Credit: 477,051,011 RAC: 285,770
                               
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As of now I lowered the memory clock to 1900mhz.
Thanks for the second clarification.
I did want to note that my card is (likely) less affected because the factory overclocking was rather low (It's Gigabyte brand, as oppose to EVGA). So that reason, alone, could be why I was still able to run some of the short tasks.
I'll try to get a world record task and see if it can run well. I just hope to not end up failing the task at a late percent (The farthest the card has run for is ~40%).
I would certainly not run higher than the Nvidia reference clock speeds the first time you try a long WU, especially with a 550 Ti. Factory overclocked is still overclocked. It's a good bet neither EVGA nor Gigabyte uses GeneferCUDA in their validation tests. :)
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My lucky number is 75898524288+1 | |
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Indeed.
The previous clock setting was 2050mhz, so 1900mhz is a decently steep drop. (In fact, I think that's the reference clock speed)
Anyway, I'm completely one last PPS sieve and then I'm getting a GFN_WR. Wish me luck!
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Michael Goetz Volunteer moderator Project administrator
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Joined: 21 Jan 10 Posts: 14037 ID: 53948 Credit: 477,051,011 RAC: 285,770
                               
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Indeed.
The previous clock setting was 2050mhz, so 1900mhz is a decently steep drop. (In fact, I think that's the reference clock speed)
Anyway, I'm completely one last PPS sieve and then I'm getting a GFN_WR. Wish me luck!
Good luck -- maybe you'll find the prime we're looking for!
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My lucky number is 75898524288+1 | |
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Indeed.
The previous clock setting was 2050mhz, so 1900mhz is a decently steep drop. (In fact, I think that's the reference clock speed)
Anyway, I'm completely one last PPS sieve and then I'm getting a GFN_WR. Wish me luck!
Hi Alex,
maybe I can try to help a little bit but of course Michael is the one who knows best !!
I'm running a very similar rig as you with a 550ti-card with the following settings:
Driver 296.10
Boinc Version 6.12.34
Shader clock 1847
Mem clock 1444
GPU usage 99%
GPU temp 62C (room temp ~22C)
I just downloaded a GFN-WR unit to look how it will work on this card.
Estimated run time in BOINC is 320hrs = ~13.5 days
Estimated run time in the project is 282hrs = ~12 days
How the file has started can be found in the 'data/slots' folder (stderr.txt file)
e.g. my readings:
genefercuda 2.3.0-0 (Windows x86 CUDA 3.2)
Copyright 2001-2003, Yves Gallot
Copyright 2009, Mark Rodenkirch, David Underbakke
Copyright 2010-2012, Shoichiro Yamada, Ken Brazier
Copyright 2011-2012, Iain Bethune, Michael Goetz, Ronald Schneider
Command line: projects/www.primegrid.com/primegrid_genefer_2_3_0_0_1.07_windows_intelx86__cuda32_13.exe -boinc -q 2284^4194304+1 --device 0
Priority change succeeded.
GPU=GeForce GTX 550 Ti
Global memory=1073741824 Shared memory/block=49152 Registers/block=32768 Warp size=32
Max threads/block=1024
Max thread dim=1024 1024 64
Max grid=65535 65535 65535
CC=2.1
Clock=1867 MHz
# of MP=4
No project preference specified; using SHIFT=8
Starting initialization...
maxErr during b^N initialization = 0.0000 (1.217 seconds).
Testing 2284^4194304+1...
Estimated total run time for 2284^4194304+1 is 282:29:58
I assume, that this can help to identify some problems @start ??
Not sure..
Best luck .. parabol
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I'm a prime millionaire !
9*2^3497442+1 | |
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Thanks for the info, parabol.
I'm running the task now and so far so good. The ETAs you gave also seem to coincide well with my previous (I calculated an approximate 200 hour run-time for my card before I underclocked it). I suppose I should should expect the task to finish at about 220-240 hours then. | |
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Michael Goetz Volunteer moderator Project administrator
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Joined: 21 Jan 10 Posts: 14037 ID: 53948 Credit: 477,051,011 RAC: 285,770
                               
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I assume, that this can help to identify some problems @start ??
Not sure..
Best luck .. parabol
The information is for helping to diagnose problems, as well as to provide interesting/useful information for you.
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My lucky number is 75898524288+1 | |
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@Alex
Gigabyte, as well as Asus and MSI seems to have better cooling on most of their GPUs than EVGA or reference cooling. Even though your temps are getting up to 75C on the GPU chip, the memory modules may run a little cooler then EVGA or reference because of this, which would allow less problems at OC levels than others. Backside of the card cooling also helps this, so if you have decent air movement across it that too helps keeping memory modules (and the whole card) slightly cooler as well. The long tasks use a lot more memory, and will run hotter, and that may be why your long WUs error out at some point on your 550 Ti.
Hope your able to complete your long WUs now with the lowered memory clock. Good luck.
NM*
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Largest Primes to Date:
As Double Checker: SR5 109208*5^1816285+1 Dgts-1,269,534
As Initial Finder: SR5 243944*5^1258576-1 Dgts-879,713
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Another question:
From my calculations, it apparently will take 270 hours to complete the task.
What are some typical run-times for these? I'm wondering if it might be smarter for this project (as well as others) to mostly focus on PPS sieves instead. | |
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Michael Goetz Volunteer moderator Project administrator
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Joined: 21 Jan 10 Posts: 14037 ID: 53948 Credit: 477,051,011 RAC: 285,770
                               
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Another question:
From my calculations, it apparently will take 270 hours to complete the task.
What are some typical run-times for these? I'm wondering if it might be smarter for this project (as well as others) to mostly focus on PPS sieves instead.
That's totally up to you, and is determined by what *your* personal goals are.
If credit is your top priority, then PPS Sieve gives you more -- and there's less of a chance of losing a big chunk of credit due to a computation error.
If you want a chance to find a prime number -- in this case the world's largest -- then this is the only GPU project for that.
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My lucky number is 75898524288+1 | |
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Well, I will start off by saying that credit doesn't actually motivate me in any direction. What I meant by that was I wanted to compare my computation times to others who might have a more "apt" card for the tasks.
I regularly run PPS sieves and PPS llr tests. At the moment I've returned to dedicating my ATI GPU to multiple projects, including this one. I was literally comparing the "need" for GFN tasks to get done to my ability to complete them. Whether a prime is found or not, I wouldn't care if it's in my name, but instead simply that I helped in finding it. | |
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Michael Goetz Volunteer moderator Project administrator
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Joined: 21 Jan 10 Posts: 14037 ID: 53948 Credit: 477,051,011 RAC: 285,770
                               
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Well, I will start off by saying that credit doesn't actually motivate me in any direction. What I meant by that was I wanted to compare my computation times to others who might have a more "apt" card for the tasks.
I regularly run PPS sieves and PPS llr tests. At the moment I've returned to dedicating my ATI GPU to multiple projects, including this one. I was literally comparing the "need" for GFN tasks to get done to my ability to complete them. Whether a prime is found or not, I wouldn't care if it's in my name, but instead simply that I helped in finding it.
Well, I'm certainly biased, but I consider GFN to be one of the most exciting projects we've ever had here. It's been decades since anything other than a Mersenne prime has been at -- or even near -- the top of the prime list. The opportunity to efficiently search for another type of huge prime number is new and exciting.
But as far as "need" is concerned, more computing power is always needed in all the projects, so pick your poison. Unlike most projects, PrimeGrid exists more to serve the volunteers rather than the other way around. If you find a prime, YOU get credit for discovering the prime. (Credit also goes to the project and software, too; they're not ignored.)
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My lucky number is 75898524288+1 | |
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Scott Brown Volunteer moderator Project administrator Volunteer tester Project scientist
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Joined: 17 Oct 05 Posts: 2417 ID: 1178 Credit: 20,014,181,399 RAC: 20,154,262
                                                
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Another question:
From my calculations, it apparently will take 270 hours to complete the task.
What are some typical run-times for these? I'm wondering if it might be smarter for this project (as well as others) to mostly focus on PPS sieves instead.
Well, my world record efforts were somewhat early on, but here are a couple of comparison times:
GTX 560 Ti (OEM) - about 4 days...note, likely 6-8days with current work
GTX 550 Ti - about 8.5 days...more like 10 days with current work
GT 440 - a bit more than 22 days!...I don't even want to think about it now, probably about 26-30 days.
Also, the shorter GFN work:
GTX 560 Ti (OEM) - about 10,500 seconds
GTX 550 Ti - about 21,000 seconds
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141941*2^4299438-1 is prime!
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Michael Goetz Volunteer moderator Project administrator
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Joined: 21 Jan 10 Posts: 14037 ID: 53948 Credit: 477,051,011 RAC: 285,770
                               
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A word of caution about WU durations:
This early in the World Record project, there are substantial differences in WU durations depending on the value of b. Don't forget that they're not handed out in sequential order because of resends of errored tasks -- and there's lots of those! The run times of your WUs will go up and down and up and down -- sometimes by very significant amounts.
Right now, the smallest b still being worked on is 52 and the largest is 2376.
On my GTX 460, those WUs would take 109:35:05 and 215:34:58, respectively. That's quite a difference. So be careful when comparing one GPU to another based on how fast they did "a long WU".
The short WUs are more consistent in length, although they are slowly increasing. Comparing run times of the short WUs would give you more consistent comparisons.
In a couple of months, the durations of the long WUs won't vary so much, and using WU run times to compare hardware will be more reliable. But for right now it's probably better to run the benchmarks and compare those times.
There's a fairly easy to apply formula that can give you the expected run time based upon the benchmark results and the value of B. That's actually what the program does when it prints out the expected run time.
If you just want to know what the fastest GPU is, for us, that's the GTX 580, which is about 2.5 times as fast as a 550 Ti.
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My lucky number is 75898524288+1 | |
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Hit a computation error again. Looks like I need to drop that clock speed even more. :/ | |
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Scott Brown Volunteer moderator Project administrator Volunteer tester Project scientist
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Joined: 17 Oct 05 Posts: 2417 ID: 1178 Credit: 20,014,181,399 RAC: 20,154,262
                                                
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I have the following question for you.
I have completed five GFN tasks thus far. Still no World Record tasks, although I have a couple of these tasks in progress right now.
They all run by means of CUDA.
I am guessing that these tasks are all LLR-based, even though they run by means of CUDA.
Yes, I have asked this question before. But the point I would like to make this time is that I am able to see that GFN also can be run as a sieving task directly, meaning it only returns factors (if any) when it finishes up.
Are such sieving tasks for GFN readily available and if so, would I be able to immediately see the difference between these two types of GFN while they are running?
GFN sieving is available for the higher three n's that are being/will be tested at PG or on PRPnet (note that the world record units are the largest n for testing now, the smaller GFN task right now on BOINC would be from the 4th largest n--all n of this size and smaller are already sieved to optimal depths). However, the GFN sieve application must be run manually. For details, see the GFN sieve thread in the sieving section of the message boards.
As for the GFN tests themselves, they are not LLR based. Rather they use an application called GeneferCUDA (or one of three other variants for CPU computation).
Since the GFN sieves are manual and the GFN tests are either BOINC or PRPnet, you should be able to see the differences in these fairly easily. One other very big difference is that the GFN sieve is available for CPUs only.
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141941*2^4299438-1 is prime!
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Michael Goetz Volunteer moderator Project administrator
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Joined: 21 Jan 10 Posts: 14037 ID: 53948 Credit: 477,051,011 RAC: 285,770
                               
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Just an add-on question. How does this work out (both types) when it comes to 64-bit processing?
The GeneferCUDA app is a 32 bit app. Since most of the processing is done on the GPU, it doesn't matter much if the CPU is running a 32 bit or 64 bit program. When I tested it, a 64-bit version of GeneferCUDA was slower than the 32 bit version.
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My lucky number is 75898524288+1 | |
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Scott Brown Volunteer moderator Project administrator Volunteer tester Project scientist
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Joined: 17 Oct 05 Posts: 2417 ID: 1178 Credit: 20,014,181,399 RAC: 20,154,262
                                                
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Just an add-on question. How does this work out (both types) when it comes to 64-bit processing?
The GeneferCUDA app is a 32 bit app. Since most of the processing is done on the GPU, it doesn't matter much if the CPU is running a 32 bit or 64 bit program. When I tested it, a 64-bit version of GeneferCUDA was slower than the 32 bit version.
...and as I recall, the GFN manual sieving is only 64-bit.
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141941*2^4299438-1 is prime!
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Hit a computation error again. Looks like I need to drop that clock speed even more. :/
Hi alex and all,
I just come back to my statement:
I'm running a very similar rig as you with a 550ti-card with the following settings:
Driver 296.10
Boinc Version 6.12.34
Shader clock 1847
Mem clock 1444
GPU usage 99%
GPU temp 62C (room temp ~22C)
I just downloaded a GFN-WR unit to look how it will work on this card.
Estimated run time in BOINC is 320hrs = ~13.5 days
Estimated run time in the project is 282hrs = ~12 days
Now this WU has finished like you see here:
http://www.primegrid.com/workunit.php?wuid=262000589
It is interesting to see that my Wingman with a GTX580 run the WU in about 1/3 of time
but reporting was only about 17hrs before me !
However this is surely due to individial settings on how to report.
And..the validation was quickly done...
Just want to say here that GFN-WR can be run properly if you follow:
http://www.primegrid.com/forum_thread.php?id=4148
This was a test for me about GFN-WR. But with this card it takes too long for me.
During the whole test I did not 'stress' the system .. just to make sure it will work..
... and it did ... !!
So I'm looking foreward for this WU now:
http://www.primegrid.com/workunit.php?wuid=256212933
.. and will see how to use my GPU's in future ..
Best regards .. Parabol
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I'm a prime millionaire !
9*2^3497442+1 | |
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Message boards :
Generalized Fermat Prime Search :
Clarification on task purposes |