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Message boards : Number crunching : The Earth Day Challenge - discussion

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TroubledBunnyProject donor
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Discovered 1 mega prime321 LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,004,625)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,019,085)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,006,207)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,148,385)PPS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,011,256)PSP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,115,686)SoB LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,357,348)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,050,964)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,175,581)TRP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,109,064)Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,606,752)321 Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,113,919)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,655,968)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,006,509)PPS Sieve Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (347,222,280)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,014,690)TRP Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,141,121)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,764,542)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (76,867,118)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (16,276,495)
Message 22237 - Posted: 31 Mar 2010 | 13:30:59 UTC

Please accept that I don't think this name issue is at all important and read the following knowing that my tongue is firmly in my cheek.

Is this the most inappropriately named challenge ever?
In the spirit of Earth Day please don't turn on your computers during the challenge period!

Or should we rename the challenge to Anti-Earth Day and get everyone to crunch as hard as they can?

Pete.

No response is required!

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Message 22241 - Posted: 31 Mar 2010 | 18:37:36 UTC

I think that using public transportation and selectively collecting garbage every day achieves more that turning off your computer for one day.
Of course, this does not apply to people with farms of 3+ computers. Buying computers for the sole purpose of running dist. computing projects is... well, wrong. But that's just my opinion.

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Message 22242 - Posted: 31 Mar 2010 | 19:01:35 UTC - in response to Message 22241.

According to this greenpeace study, the power consumption of computer centers is a very big problem.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/press/reports/make-it-green-cloud-computing
(PDF Download Link at the end of the page)
____________

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Discovered 1 mega primeFound 2 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2021 Tour de PrimesFound 3 primes in the 2022 Tour de Primes321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,148,133)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,022,806)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,657,625)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,251,083)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (28,493,981)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,182,638)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,923,035)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,603,308)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,139,194)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (19,376)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,520,745)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,021,413)321 Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,915,071)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,584,236)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,461,309)PPS Sieve Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (97,322,801)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (352,129)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (776,202)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,368,553)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (40,451,682)WW Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (19,468,000)PSA Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,154,617)
Message 22243 - Posted: 31 Mar 2010 | 19:33:50 UTC
Last modified: 31 Mar 2010 | 19:35:17 UTC

I'm planning to post the following in the real Earth Day Challenge thread (Or maybe John will like it and will post it for me?):

So you know all about climate change, but you've decided to participate in the "Earth Day" challenge anyway? Yeah, me too. :)

So here's some things you can do to save energy during the Earth Day challenge...

Things that won't harm your computing speed:
- Unplug devices you aren't using. This includes things like:
...- Peripherals - are you really using that USB drive?
...- Chargers - Once a device is charged, I hear that letting it drain somewhat helps battery life.
...- Internal components. Do you need that second drive for this challenge? How about that optical drive? Can you swap out that high-end video card for one that draws less power? This challenge project doesn't use the GPU, so any GPU work you do will take at least some CPU away from the challenge work. As will any video games you play.

- Clean out your case. Dust makes heat build up. Heat increases resistance, which draws more power (and creates more heat). Plus fans have to work harder.

- Turn your monitor off and go do something else. Go for a bike ride. Plant a tree. Go fly a kite (but don't take it personally!) If the weather's nasty, read a book. You'll save power and get more crunching done!

Things that might harm your computing speed:
- If you haven't overclocked, have you tried undervolting? Most processors don't need the default voltage to run at stock speed. If done properly, undervolting won't harm your computer - it might even increase your CPU's lifespan - but it can cause LLR errors if you go too far, and if you go even further in the BIOS you might have to reset it with a jumper. You should run a torture test after undervolting, especially before a race with long LLR WUs like this one.

- Is your RAM running too fast? For CPUs with a FSB, like my Core 2, dual-channel RAM can only transfer data at up to twice the FSB speed. So if you're using DDR2-800 on a 333MHz bus, your RAM is idling some period of time during full-bandwidth transfers. You can turn it down to match the bus speed by adjusting the multiplier, usually in the BIOS. The tradeoff is that the lower clock speed produces increased latency for random access; but this can sometimes be reduced if you can run with tighter RAM timings. Again, test your RAM and run a torture test, especially before a race with long LLR WUs like this one. Also, this probably doesn't apply to any recent AMD processors, or to Intel I3/5/7/9 processors.
____________

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Message 22331 - Posted: 4 Apr 2010 | 14:27:14 UTC

I run mostly efficient laptops but my desktop computer is overclocked and undervoltaged. I am also on solar and intend to run the Earthday challenge on solar power. My team will be running at least 6 computers. But consider this for all the computers that are on the power grid: the crunching we do helps technology. Prime number searching helps internet and bank security, raises interest in mathematics, and provides support for other mathematical branches like number theory. Technology is probably the only thing that is going to save this planet and mankind. So I say let us crunch and just maybe one of our large prime numbers will help unlock some math theory that could save the planet. Oh, by the way, number theory was once thought of as a useless branch of mathematics.
____________
May your addiction to Boinc be greater than mine!

End Transmission!


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Message 22338 - Posted: 4 Apr 2010 | 19:24:19 UTC

At work we have three BS2000-hosts each rated with 170 kW. That seems to be a lot, but you have to consider that the average car is rated at 30 kW while idling in traffic-jam. So about 210 employees driving to and from work do use the same energy as the three hosts. Double this to account for the air conditioning system. All clients in our company would account for approximately 15000 kWh a day, that is a lot more than the three hosts, since we are in Centrla Europe we do not have air conditioning in the offices and that saves a lot energy. That off course is only a rough estimation. You would do a lot for the environment if you would default to public transport if you are living in a metropolitan region instead of using a car. The real meaning behind the word "automobile" is it is moving itself in the first place. 1500 kg for the car and most time only around 80 kg for the person driving the car. That is inefficiency at its best. And not to forget recycling aluminium-foil, production of raw aluminium uses a lot of energy too. After all you could also change your energy-provider to one that do not uses atomic-power - or nuclear power as it is called in newspeak - or fossil energy. Try wind power, hydropower or solar energy - whatever is best in your region, i.e. solar energy in most part of spain, hydropower in mountainous regions and wind power in coastal regions.
Just my two cents.

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Message 22342 - Posted: 5 Apr 2010 | 0:00:06 UTC
Last modified: 5 Apr 2010 | 0:03:16 UTC

You're right about the pollution cars put out and the power they consume. I live in a rural area where one trip into town draws more power than all my computers take in a week. I try to use a little planning so I can eliminate a trip to town every now and then. Also, most people do not realize how much power they burn with all the little electronics plugged in all the time. For example: 2 15-watt nightlights and a DVD player left on all the time will take enough power to run one of my laptop computers around the clock. Take a look around and start unplugging all the little power blocks and turn off all the electronics and lights you're not using while on the challenge. Maybe turn the thermostat a few degrees up or down depending on where you live. It's quite possible you could run the Earth Day Challenge and use no more power than leaving your computer off and everything else plugged in.
____________
May your addiction to Boinc be greater than mine!

End Transmission!


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Message 22344 - Posted: 5 Apr 2010 | 7:55:30 UTC - in response to Message 22342.

15-watt nightlights and a DVD player left on all the time will take enough power to run one of my laptop computers around the clock.

In Europe we already have low standby powers at least if your equipment is new.
see http://www.energyefficiencynews.com/i/1715/
and you could use a highly efficient power supply 85+ which in europe with its 220V climbes up to 90+ efficiency. Anyway modern laptops have the best efficiency-ratio.

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Message 22360 - Posted: 5 Apr 2010 | 23:53:37 UTC - in response to Message 22344.


In Europe we already have low standby powers at least if your equipment is new.


That's great! I know a lot of newer electronics are much more efficient now, but a lot of people are still running five- and ten-year old equipment. Not only that, but some of the equipment when in stanby mode still takes 15 to 20 watts of power. At least that seems to be the case here in the USA. I always check anything that I plug in and most electronics that I use are plugged in to a power bar with a hard switch. That way I know it's not taking power. Another simple way to offset your computer power for the challenge is to clean the refrigerator coils and defrost the freezer if you have a freezer that is not "frost free". Just 1/4" of frost on freezer coils is enough to affect the efficiency of your freezer.
____________
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End Transmission!


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Message 22609 - Posted: 18 Apr 2010 | 14:25:09 UTC
Last modified: 18 Apr 2010 | 14:28:20 UTC

Also consider, at least for the challenge, your hot water heater and clothes dryer. Both of these take a lot of power in a short time. A standard water heater can take 4 to 5 kilowatts in as little as an hour. Consider turning down the temperature it heats the water to, taking shorter showers, and when you wash a load of laundry, using cold water if you don't already. A clothes dryer can take comparable power drying one load of laundry. A lot of people might be able to hang their clothes and let them air dry instead of using the dryer.
____________
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Message 22610 - Posted: 18 Apr 2010 | 14:32:03 UTC - in response to Message 22609.

A lot of people might be able to hang their clothes and let them air dry instead of using the dryer.

Hang it over the cores / crunching machines - a very warm air dry ;-)
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Message 22622 - Posted: 19 Apr 2010 | 1:52:59 UTC

Use the most efficient energy source for the most critical component of your computing system - your own brain. For a given nutritional value a vegetarian meal takes much less energy to produce than a meat based one.

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Discovered the World's First base 116 Generalized Cullen prime!!!Discovered 55 mega primesEliminated 7 conjecture "k"sDiscovered 1 Sophie Germain pairDiscovered 2 Fermat divisors2012 Tour de Primes highest prime count2012 Tour de Primes most Mountain Stage primes2015 Tour de Primes highest prime count2016 Tour de Primes highest prime countFound 23 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2018 Tour de Primes Mountain Stage2019 Tour de Primes highest prime countFound 22 primes in the 2019 Tour de Primes2020 Tour de Primes highest prime scoreFound 21 primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 4 mega primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 8 primes in the 2021 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2021 Tour de PrimesFound 21 primes in the 2022 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2022 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2022 Tour de Primes Mountain Stage321 LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (222,511,049)Cullen LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (215,424,471)ESP LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (214,825,147)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (263,665,455)PPS LLR Double Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000,000 credits (1,027,843,656)PSP LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (224,383,910)SoB LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (207,028,068)SR5 LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (245,832,645)SGS LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (222,138,219)TPS LLR (retired) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (235,439)TRP LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (259,244,126)Woodall LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,651,344)321 Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (235,451,253)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (83,794,448)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (285,139,652)PPS Sieve Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (3,102,369,052)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (203,523,358)TRP Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,489,157)AP 26/27 Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (586,795,469)GFN Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (2,498,254,588)WW Double Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000,000 credits (5,463,200,000)PSA Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (259,058,048)
Message 22623 - Posted: 19 Apr 2010 | 2:44:36 UTC - in response to Message 22622.

Use the most efficient energy source for the most critical component of your computing system - your own brain. For a given nutritional value a vegetarian meal takes much less energy to produce than a meat based one.


While generally true for commercial operations for meat "on the hoof," this is not always the case. For example, quality sashimi (a raw fish Japanese dish) is never farm raised, but caught wild. It is not processed, not cooked, and prepared typically from the whole or large portions of the fish that has been cleaned and cut by hand. The only appreciable energy costs come from the diesel boat engines and from whatever refrigerated transportation might be needed to get it from port cities. This is probably comparable (or even less) than the diesel tractors and transportation (also often refrigerated) required for most vegetarian foods.

Perhaps a more general way to reduce one's dietary energy footprint, rather than giving up one's particular eating habits (which might have very strong cultural and/or religious meaning) might be to consider doing the following:

1) Don't waste it. Westerners (like me) generally, and Americans (also like me) especially waste a great deal of food by preparing unnecessarily large portions and/or allowing the leftovers to spoil. You could save considerable food energy by preparing less or being more proactive in reducing food waste. I am really looking forward to new bar code reading appliances becoming more mainstream to help me out with the latter.

2) Buy locally grown products. An overwhelming amount of energy is used in transporting foods across large distances with particular geographic regions now specializing in particular products (including those that are vegetarian). When possible, buy from local growers at places like local farmer's markets. Not only will you save energy, you will support your local economy and get typically fresher products.

____________
141941*2^4299438-1 is prime!


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Message 22624 - Posted: 19 Apr 2010 | 3:19:58 UTC - in response to Message 22623.

2) Buy locally grown products. An overwhelming amount of energy is used in transporting foods across large distances with particular geographic regions now specializing in particular products (including those that are vegetarian). When possible, buy from local growers at places like local farmer's markets. Not only will you save energy, you will support your local economy and get typically fresher products.

Let's not forget, grow your own as well. :) There's nothing like eating organic vegetables harvested 30 minutes prior to meal time.

It's also extremely easy to grow more than you immediately need which allows for canning and freezing. Additionally, you can share your fresh produce with family and friends. Invite neighbors to come over and harvest what they need for their meals.

"You can count the number of seeds in an apple, but you can't count the number of apples in a seed."
____________

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Message 22639 - Posted: 19 Apr 2010 | 23:53:24 UTC - in response to Message 22623.

While generally true for commercial operations for meat "on the hoof," this is not always the case. For example, quality sashimi (a raw fish Japanese dish) is never farm raised, but caught wild. It is not processed, not cooked, and prepared typically from the whole or large portions of the fish that has been cleaned and cut by hand. The only appreciable energy costs come from the diesel boat engines and from whatever refrigerated transportation might be needed to get it from port cities. This is probably comparable (or even less) than the diesel tractors and transportation (also often refrigerated) required for most vegetarian foods.


If you only count the energy used by machines then fish doesn't look too bad. But food is energy too, the diesel that fuels the fishing boats could be made from the same corn eaten by the crew, or people picking apples, or by a dog used to round up sheep.

The fact that some energy is not paid for does not affect energy efficiency. Some fish use energy to harvest plankton, other carnivorous fish use energy to harvest those fish, and at each stage the vast majority of the energy value is lost. If you count all the energy used to produce the fish, starting with the plants they eat, then it takes far more energy to produce fish than it takes to produce a plant-based meal.

For best energy efficiency, eat as close to the bottom of the food chain as possible.

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Message 22650 - Posted: 20 Apr 2010 | 10:10:59 UTC

seems that power plant get a big problems during the earth hour when everybody turns electrical devices off.
plants need to keep energy level at some value, so sudden drop and next sudden raise above the average level (when everybody turns everything on to catch up missed laundry, coffeemakers etc) make energy consumption higher than energy that was saved by switching your tv off.
such a twist.

this is an normal eco-terrorists fault. like usual.
____________
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Message 22671 - Posted: 21 Apr 2010 | 9:00:37 UTC

And another problem is that you cannot just switch off any of the renewable-power production facilities. Solar/Wind/Water energy is always generated when there is wind/sunlight. Unused energy is wasted. And you cannot really save electrical energy in a battery in an amount to compensate for blackouts (e.g. no solar power at night), neither can one store the electrical energy saved in low consumption times. (btw: the same problem occurs if you think about lightning strikes, its just too much energy to save in short time)

The only large scale energy storage I know of are water reservoirs, where you can pump water up a hill if you have energy spare and drive turbines when you need the energy.

The whole power production industry depends on energy sources which are available anywhere at any time and these are only coal and nuclear sources. In this context, a general approach for energy saving makes sense. But you don't save the environment by switching off your 42" TV screen for a day.

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Discovered 1 mega primeFound 2 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2021 Tour de PrimesFound 3 primes in the 2022 Tour de Primes321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,148,133)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,022,806)ESP LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,657,625)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,251,083)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (28,493,981)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,182,638)SoB LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,923,035)SR5 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,603,308)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,139,194)TPS LLR (retired) Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (19,376)TRP LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,520,745)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,021,413)321 Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,915,071)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (8,584,236)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,461,309)PPS Sieve Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (97,322,801)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (352,129)TRP Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (776,202)AP 26/27 Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,368,553)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (40,451,682)WW Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (19,468,000)PSA Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,154,617)
Message 22677 - Posted: 21 Apr 2010 | 15:08:09 UTC - in response to Message 22671.

The only large scale energy storage I know of are water reservoirs, where you can pump water up a hill if you have energy spare and drive turbines when you need the energy.

There is another.

Heat is much easier to store than electricity, a fact that gives CSP a crucial -- maybe the crucial -- advantage over wind and solar photovoltaics.


____________

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The "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 2 mega primesFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2021 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2022 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2022 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2022 Tour de Primes Mountain Stage321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,638,389)Cullen LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,038,114)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,177,890)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,094,541)PPS LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,642,050)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,956,186)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (36,067,618)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,715,298)SGS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,037,630)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,032,821)321 Sieve (suspended) Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,902,645)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (92,455,703)WW Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (67,400,000)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 22680 - Posted: 21 Apr 2010 | 16:17:45 UTC - in response to Message 22677.

Sadly, although all of these tips and ideas are worthwhile, they're merely addressing the symptoms and not the root cause.

To get energy consumption under control, mitigate the effects of global warming, as well as address the related problems of pollution, food production, and so forth, the technology we need is already available, inexpensive, and sadly, vastly underused.

Condoms.

I'm not kidding. Building better hybrids and wind power and so forth is going to seem like a quaint and naive approach in the history books if the population keeps increasing at the rate of 50% every 40 years.

Sorry to bring up a potentially contentious political hot topic, but nobody seems to want to talk about it. There's no way we, as a species, are ever going to get energy consumption and greenhouse effects under control while our population is increasing (and thusly increasing energy consumption and everything else) at such a dramatic rate.

Even China, using dramatic (some would say barbarian) methods only available to a totalitarian state, has been unable to stem the tide of population growth.

Energy and climate are merely side effects of this problem. We'll never solve these problems, serious as they are, until the underlying root cause is addressed.

So, sure, dim the lights tomorrow -- conservation is undeniably a good thing -- but the real problem is increasing population. And that's going to be an incredibly difficult, perhaps impossible, problem to solve. Not only does every major religion have some version of "go forth and multiply", but that directive is hard-wired into our brains thanks to evolutionary pressure. Short of genocide, nobody in history has ever devised an effective means of containing population growth.

As long as we ignore the big problem that's causing all the little problems, the little problems are going to continue to get worse, no matter what we do to try to stop them.
____________
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Discovered the World's First base 116 Generalized Cullen prime!!!Discovered 55 mega primesEliminated 7 conjecture "k"sDiscovered 1 Sophie Germain pairDiscovered 2 Fermat divisors2012 Tour de Primes highest prime count2012 Tour de Primes most Mountain Stage primes2015 Tour de Primes highest prime count2016 Tour de Primes highest prime countFound 23 primes in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2018 Tour de Primes Mountain Stage2019 Tour de Primes highest prime countFound 22 primes in the 2019 Tour de Primes2020 Tour de Primes highest prime scoreFound 21 primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 4 mega primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 8 primes in the 2021 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2021 Tour de PrimesFound 21 primes in the 2022 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2022 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2022 Tour de Primes Mountain Stage321 LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (222,511,049)Cullen LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (215,424,471)ESP LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (214,825,147)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (263,665,455)PPS LLR Double Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000,000 credits (1,027,843,656)PSP LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (224,383,910)SoB LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (207,028,068)SR5 LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (245,832,645)SGS LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (222,138,219)TPS LLR (retired) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (235,439)TRP LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (259,244,126)Woodall LLR Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,651,344)321 Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (235,451,253)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (83,794,448)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (285,139,652)PPS Sieve Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (3,102,369,052)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (203,523,358)TRP Sieve (suspended) Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (201,489,157)AP 26/27 Double Gold: Earned 500,000,000 credits (586,795,469)GFN Double Ruby: Earned 2,000,000,000 credits (2,498,254,588)WW Double Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000,000 credits (5,463,200,000)PSA Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (259,058,048)
Message 22687 - Posted: 21 Apr 2010 | 18:57:14 UTC - in response to Message 22680.

Hi Michael,

As a professional demographer and statistician, I hope you will see my responses to your comments below as substantively driven and not politically motivated. Though well stated, much of what you have written is simply not true (or at least not demographically correct anymore):

Sadly, although all of these tips and ideas are worthwhile, they're merely addressing the symptoms and not the root cause.

To get energy consumption under control, mitigate the effects of global warming, as well as address the related problems of pollution, food production, and so forth, the technology we need is already available, inexpensive, and sadly, vastly underused.


While it is true that the technology is available, relatively inexpensive, and underused, this has nothing to do with population dynamics. Rather, it is an economically and politically driven pattern with illogical results such as wealthy industrial nations paying farmers to NOT plant crops even when starvation and malnutrition continue to be major social problems in many areas of the world.



Condoms.

I'm not kidding. Building better hybrids and wind power and so forth is going to seem like a quaint and naive approach in the history books if the population keeps increasing at the rate of 50% every 40 years.

Sorry to bring up a potentially contentious political hot topic, but nobody seems to want to talk about it. There's no way we, as a species, are ever going to get energy consumption and greenhouse effects under control while our population is increasing (and thusly increasing energy consumption and everything else) at such a dramatic rate.


This is only partially correct. Dramatic population increases have been observed over the last couple of centuries due to the effects of industrialization and its accompanying social changes, which are explained in detail under the Demographic Transition Theory. However, the doomsday population growth predicted earlier by demographers from the 1940's to the 1970's has not unfolded. Indeed, rather than the 15-25 billion population predicted to unfold over the next century, current trends show that global population growth (though still on the increase) is slowing. Current forecasts predict a maximum global population of about 9-10 billion in the early second-half of the current century with slow but steady population decline afterward due to reduced fertility levels.


Even China, using dramatic (some would say barbarian) methods only available to a totalitarian state, has been unable to stem the tide of population growth.


This is actually completely false. Replacement level fertility rates (a rate of 2.1 to replace both parents plus the average of 10% of populations that are sterile for various reasons) was achieved by China a few years ago. China's fertility rate has continued to decline, and once the momentum of the period of higher level fertility subsides, Chinese population may actually modestly decline.


So, sure, dim the lights tomorrow -- conservation is undeniably a good thing -- but the real problem is increasing population. And that's going to be an incredibly difficult, perhaps impossible, problem to solve. Not only does every major religion have some version of "go forth and multiply", but that directive is hard-wired into our brains thanks to evolutionary pressure. Short of genocide, nobody in history has ever devised an effective means of containing population growth.


This is also completely untrue. In addition to the rather Draconian method of population control successfully implemented in China, other countries have also employed less intrusive methods effectively. For example, Thailand utilized a very well-funded incentive based government approach to family planning and also reached replacement level fertility a few years ago. Indeed, several European nations have experienced low enough fertility rates that issues of population decline (rather than population growth) have been debated legislatively (Sweden, for example, actually initiated policies to increase their fertility!) .


I do not disagree that the large global population can and does produce numerous social, energy, humanitarian, etc. problems. But this problem is one that we do have effective solutions for that are being employed in many nations, and one that will become less important over the next 50 to 100 years.


____________
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Message 22688 - Posted: 21 Apr 2010 | 20:03:21 UTC - in response to Message 22671.

And another problem is that you cannot just switch off any of the renewable-power production facilities. Solar/Wind/Water energy is always generated when there is wind/sunlight. Unused energy is wasted. And you cannot really save electrical energy in a battery in an amount to compensate for blackouts (e.g. no solar power at night), neither can one store the electrical energy saved in low consumption times.

Actually, with solar you can just shut off the power, which is what a solar charge controller does. I, howerver, have no charge controllers--all power is diverted to some use through sophisticated, efficient load relays. Hot water storage, heating in winter, cooling in summer, and of course distributive processing. Also, just because energy is not used does not make it wasted. When you go to sleep at night you do not say that you are wasting energy because you are not working at maximum efficiency. To use energy that you do not need could be construed as not being earth friendly.

In this context, a general approach for energy saving makes sense. But you don't save the environment by switching off your 42" TV screen for a day.

Actually, no one person can save the planet, but if everyone turned of their TV once in a while and was aware of the little things like power blocks which suck up power 24 hours a day, it would amount to billions of killowatts which just might save the planet.

As for me, I hope to find the largest prime ever found that will in turn solve the mystery pattern to finding primes which will unlock the secrets of the universe and save not only the planet but the universe as well!!
____________
May your addiction to Boinc be greater than mine!

End Transmission!


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Message 22689 - Posted: 21 Apr 2010 | 20:03:56 UTC - in response to Message 22687.

Hi Michael,

As a professional demographer and statistician, I hope you will see my responses to your comments below as substantively driven and not politically motivated.


Absolutely! I never mind being proven wrong, or even hearing opinions I disagree with. At worst, I learn something, which is always worthwhile.


This is only partially correct. Dramatic population increases have been observed over the last couple of centuries due to the effects of industrialization and its accompanying social changes, which are explained in detail under the Demographic Transition Theory. However, the doomsday population growth predicted earlier by demographers from the 1940's to the 1970's has not unfolded. Indeed, rather than the 15-25 billion population predicted to unfold over the next century, current trends show that global population growth (though still on the increase) is slowing. Current forecasts predict a maximum global population of about 9-10 billion in the early second-half of the current century with slow but steady population decline afterward due to reduced fertility levels.


When I was in grade school I learned that the U.S. had a population of 200 million, China had a population of 1 billion, and the total global population was 4 billion.

Last time I looked at the numbers, all had increased by roughly 50%. Even so, the fact that there's 2 billion more people to feed (and who need to charge their iPods) is a scary thought. If the rate of growth is slowing, that's obviously a good thing, but even a "modest" 9-10 billion people is a whole lot. I won't be around to see that, but my children may, and it's not a pleasant thought.



Even China, using dramatic (some would say barbarian) methods only available to a totalitarian state, has been unable to stem the tide of population growth.


This is actually completely false. Replacement level fertility rates (a rate of 2.1 to replace both parents plus the average of 10% of populations that are sterile for various reasons) was achieved by China a few years ago. China's fertility rate has continued to decline, and once the momentum of the period of higher level fertility subsides, Chinese population may actually modestly decline.


It was true 40 years ago (or so my teacher said). :)

It's very interesting to hear that China has achieved success.



... nobody in history has ever devised an effective means of containing population growth.


This is also completely untrue. In addition to the rather Draconian method of population control successfully implemented in China, other countries have also employed less intrusive methods effectively. For example, Thailand utilized a very well-funded incentive based government approach to family planning and also reached replacement level fertility a few years ago. Indeed, several European nations have experienced low enough fertility rates that issues of population decline (rather than population growth) have been debated legislatively (Sweden, for example, actually initiated policies to increase their fertility!) .


Again, I'm certainly glad to be proven wrong here!


I do not disagree that the large global population can and does produce numerous social, energy, humanitarian, etc. problems. But this problem is one that we do have effective solutions for that are being employed in many nations, and one that will become less important over the next 50 to 100 years.


What you say is indeed very interesting, and I stand corrected.
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Message 22691 - Posted: 21 Apr 2010 | 20:35:35 UTC - in response to Message 22689.
Last modified: 21 Apr 2010 | 20:37:11 UTC

Thanks Michael for the nice response...too many times in these written formats we don't get to see "civilized" discourse. :)

As for the population growth in the US and China, the interesting thing is that the former really isn't global growth and the latter is a momentum issue. In the US, the population increase, while having some negligible relation to higher fertility of Native Americans (there too small a group to have significant population level effects), the growth is overwhelmingly related to immigration (and higher fertility among immigrant some groups) with some contribution from population aging. For China, it is mostly the latter. That is, even though people stopped having more than two children, those larger birth cohorts grow-up and (with health improvements) are living longer. So since they are still alive at older ages in larger numbers, the population still grows for a while after fertility declines occur...i.e., momentum.



...Now to get a bit more back on topic...anyone know the feasibility of small scale wind generation in the SW Ohio area? I am thinking seriously about installation of a small wind turbine (at least before the local city council does something stupid like banning them for aesthetic reasons).
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Message 22694 - Posted: 21 Apr 2010 | 21:52:58 UTC - in response to Message 22691.

Thanks Michael for the nice response...too many times in these written formats we don't get to see "civilized" discourse. :)

As for the population growth in the US and China, the interesting thing is that the former really isn't global growth and the latter is a momentum issue. In the US, the population increase, while having some negligible relation to higher fertility of Native Americans (there too small a group to have significant population level effects), the growth is overwhelmingly related to immigration (and higher fertility among immigrant some groups) with some contribution from population aging. For China, it is mostly the latter. That is, even though people stopped having more than two children, those larger birth cohorts grow-up and (with health improvements) are living longer. So since they are still alive at older ages in larger numbers, the population still grows for a while after fertility declines occur...i.e., momentum.



...Now to get a bit more back on topic...anyone know the feasibility of small scale wind generation in the SW Ohio area? I am thinking seriously about installation of a small wind turbine (at least before the local city council does something stupid like banning them for aesthetic reasons).


Thanks again for the information! As for the wind turbine -- with the current political climate, if any local councilman brings up some NIMBY argument, just accuse them of either being against green energy and/or being pro big oil. That should effectively stifle them.

If only there was a way to harness all the hot air expelled by politicians, our energy problems would be solved!

On a serious note, what's the expected maintenance cost on a wind turbine? Solar cells are fairly passive, but a turbine's got bearings and generator parts and stuff.
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Message 22695 - Posted: 22 Apr 2010 | 4:17:54 UTC - in response to Message 22694.

On a serious note, what's the expected maintenance cost on a wind turbine? Solar cells are fairly passive, but a turbine's got bearings and generator parts and stuff.


Wind and solar are cute and all, but I think we're missing out on the real energy bonanza. I think we really need to start capturing the energy of people spinning in their graves.

Got any family members who are living lives that would horrify their deceased (great-)grandparents? Perhaps you work at an old company whose founders would be deeply offended by the ineptitude in the company today. Just as likely, you work at an old company whose founders would be deeply offended by the ethnic diversity in the company. (Or perhaps you live in a large nation with a long history of racists that now has a black President.) There are millions, if not billions of people the world over who are spinning in their graves. Now imagine how much electrical power could be generated by capturing that rotation...

(This was written with tongue firmly planted in cheek, but imagine if people actually did spin in their graves.)

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Message 22698 - Posted: 22 Apr 2010 | 4:51:19 UTC - in response to Message 22695.

That would help to explain some earthquakes. You may have something there!

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Message 22700 - Posted: 22 Apr 2010 | 8:52:53 UTC

The 'native' population of Germany is actually decreasing for a long time now (number of children per couple is way below 2) and the population only stagnates due to longer life expectancy and immigration. The same is probably true for most of the industrial countries, where children are mostly considered as something which costs a lot of money. This is opposing to the situation in underdeveloped countries, where having many children is the only way to guarantee you get some pension (paid by your children to you, and not by some governmental insurance). So you get high birth rates and/or governmental birth control in countries with little or no social insurances and low birth rates when there are more financial protection systems.

And even if the world population would stagnate, the whole economical system is based on exponential growth as well as the financial system. There is a nice video of a university lecture "arithmetic, population and energy" (just google for "the most important video you'll ever see").

About the energy waste topic:
The governmental payments for not growing food on some fields are also practiced here. And something else related to energy is happening. If you produce your own energy, say with a solar construction on the roof or a wind turbine in your garden, then you have to deliver the overproduction into the public electricity network. You get paid for that electricity. But you get actually paid more money for the produced energy that you consume yourself. The logical consequence is, that you start keeping the lights on all day long to waste all the energy that you don't need yourself. And the electricity companies are happy with that, as they don't have to deal with the uncontrollable electric influx of private houses into their power lines.

The power grid is a big problem of its own. Alot of energy is wasted just by transporting energy from A to B while the energy consumed close to A comes from some power plant much further away. This is due to the fact, that energy is traded at the stock market. The big companies providing energy for private houses (we have 4 of these in Germany) buy energy from anywhere in the european area where it is cheaper at the moment. And this energy then has to be transferred over long distances. This then causes not just energy waste by electrical resistance, but also power blackouts due to system overloads.

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